Is PvE Level Scaling Ruining The Game?

Twysta

I feel the need to vent my frustrations at the current state of PvE and don't believe a poll has ever been made about this - I apologize if I am wrong.
I'd rather this not became a thread flaming the devs however and is just intended to be used to gripe about the level scaling.
It's admirable that despite the complaints they're sticking to their guns, but enough is enough.

There's so many things wrong with it that I find are neither intuitive or fun.

●Levels should not scale if you use boosts - they're meant to help you not make things worse
●People with the same same rosters are seeing a giant variation in levels
●Newer players are able to play through these events while some more established players are locked out due to levels being too high
●Using the most efficient methods of completing a mission has the chance of increasing the levels against a player who has/uses the same team but completes the mission poorly


So I'd just like to see some numbers on the forum to see how people feel about the current state of PvE. kthxbi.

Please note: Poll question is different to thread title.

Unknown

I enjoy not grinding as much, but don't enjoy the ridiculous high level scaling. Being punished for playing the game months before others and building up a high level team

Unknown

Level 230s are stupid, never mind Level 400s. Just forces rote gameplay, which is dull as dishwater.

Nemek

Ughh, why is the poll question the opposite of the thread title??

Unknown

Nemek wrote:

Ughh, why is the poll question the opposite of the thread title??

I wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't pointed it out.

morgh

lawl... too much work... didn't read...

Make that -1 from "enjoy it - mid-tier" to "do not enjoy it - mid tier" >.<

Bacon Pants

morgh wrote:

lawl... too much work... didn't read...

Make that -1 from "enjoy it - mid-tier" to "do not enjoy it - mid tier" >.<

Ha, I just noticed this too. Whoops.

Damn reading comprehension!!

Unknown

This is really a multi-pronged issue.

Is PvE scaling ruining the game...... no.

Is PvE scaling unfairly affecting the high end game ... yes.

Are the high end PvE players who used the "cursed" characters (CMags/Spidey) or combos (Thor/MStorm + CStorm/MN Mags) being unfairly punished for past actions.... yes.

Can the high end PvE players undo the damage to their "cursed" PvE MMR at all.... possible with the recent change, but unfairly requires them to tank on every PvE for the next 7-10 days at a minimum to bring their ratings down to remotely feasible levels.

---

In my opinion, with everyone on the forums aware of at least the basics of how the PvE MMR system works, they should be allowed to choose their own fate with a fresh slate. Everyone should get a one-time PvE MMR wipe to undo past transgressions. If people scale back into the 200+ range again, then well.... they made their own bed; let them live in it. If the devs are too afraid of impacting the new player game with a complete wipe, then reducing base PvE MMR down to level 100 for those affected would be a fair compromise.


The indirect blacklisting of the "cursed" characters + infini-loop combos, plus power creep is likely the devs' intended course of action to address the broken characters (Funbalance will never happen, IMO). Over time, they are going to become forgotten or rendered obsolete. Moving forward, players should not be punished for their actions needed to win in the past previous to these changes.

LordWill

morgh wrote:

lawl... too much work... didn't read...

Make that -1 from "enjoy it - mid-tier" to "do not enjoy it - mid tier" >.<

Same here darn it. Not enjoying the PVE game, mid tier player here.

reckless442

Lyrian wrote:

This is really a multi-pronged issue.

Is PvE scaling ruining the game...... no.

Is PvE scaling unfairly affecting the high end game ... yes.

Are the high end PvE players who used the "cursed" characters (CMags/Spidey) or combos (Thor/MStorm + CStorm/MN Mags) being unfairly punished for past actions.... yes.

Can the high end PvE players undo the damage to their "cursed" PvE MMR at all.... possible with the recent change, but unfairly requires them to tank on every PvE for the next 7-10 days at a minimum to bring their ratings down to remotely feasible levels.

---

In my opinion, with everyone on the forums aware of at least the basics of how the PvE MMR system works, they should be allowed to choose their own fate with a fresh slate. Everyone should get a one-time PvE MMR wipe to undo past transgressions. If people scale back into the 200+ range again, then well.... they made their own bed; let them live in it. If the devs are too afraid of impacting the new player game with a complete wipe, then reducing base PvE MMR down to level 100 for those affected would be a fair compromise.


The indirect blacklisting of the "cursed" characters + infini-loop combos, plus power creep is likely the devs' intended course of action to address the broken characters (Funbalance will never happen, IMO). Over time, they are going to become forgotten or rendered obsolete. Moving forward, players should not be punished for their actions needed to win in the past previous to these changes.

I like the proposal that, if we have PVE scaling, the Devs should tell us what causes scaling so we can avoid it in the future and they should give some type of amnesty for people in MMR hell. I was there are few PVEs ago but have no idea why I've only had moderately bad scaling now.

But I think there are some other fundamental issues that need to be addressed. First, why is it assumed that if you survive a battle without damage that you are breezing through the game. As plenty of people have pointed out, some battles are all-or-nothing. If one goon countdown goes off, you're entire team can be dead. So you have to be careful and strategize how to avoid damage in the first place. That doesn't mean the game isn't a challenge. It boggles my mind that a "successful" win in this game is one in which your characters limp out with just a few health left.

Second, what is the point of having characters whose skills provide board control and disable opponents if you are penalized through scaling by using them? The same with boosts (which I often use in combination with those characters). I don't use Spidey, but I use different combinations or characters and boosts depending on environments to shorten matches and minimize damage. That might be Classic Mags with blue boosts, GSBW with purple boosts, Modern Storm with red boosts, Lazy Thor with yellow boosts. It's not just Spidey who can give you board control or make matches quicker. By my calculation, using three +3 AP boosts is cheaper than using a health pack after each match and the boosts allow me to play two to three times as many matches in the time it would take to play one match, take massive damage, and prologue heal. The Devs still make plenty of money off me, so I'm not sure why that strategy should be penalized.

Twysta

Nemek wrote:

Ughh, why is the poll question the opposite of the thread title??

Haha whoops, I just didn't feel like repeating the same thing... should I change it?

Does it not let people change their vote?

Twysta

I was gonna say... do 7 high tiered players actually enjoy the PvE then or is it a misvote??

Twysta

Lyrian wrote:

This is really a multi-pronged issue.

Is PvE scaling ruining the game...... no.

Is PvE scaling unfairly affecting the high end game ... yes.

Are the high end PvE players who used the "cursed" characters (CMags/Spidey) or combos (Thor/MStorm + CStorm/MN Mags) being unfairly punished for past actions.... yes.

Can the high end PvE players undo the damage to their "cursed" PvE MMR at all.... possible with the recent change, but unfairly requires them to tank on every PvE for the next 7-10 days at a minimum to bring their ratings down to remotely feasible levels.

---

In my opinion, with everyone on the forums aware of at least the basics of how the PvE MMR system works, they should be allowed to choose their own fate with a fresh slate. Everyone should get a one-time PvE MMR wipe to undo past transgressions. If people scale back into the 200+ range again, then well.... they made their own bed; let them live in it. If the devs are too afraid of impacting the new player game with a complete wipe, then reducing base PvE MMR down to level 100 for those affected would be a fair compromise.


The indirect blacklisting of the "cursed" characters + infini-loop combos, plus power creep is likely the devs' intended course of action to address the broken characters (Funbalance will never happen, IMO). Over time, they are going to become forgotten or rendered obsolete. Moving forward, players should not be punished for their actions needed to win in the past previous to these changes.

I understand all the issues of it, but the poll is as simple as to find out who actually enjoys it. Right now.

Basically it's a simple... is it fun?
That's the fundementals of it. None of the kerfuffle and faf of anything else.

Nemek

Twysta wrote:

I was gonna say... do 7 high tiered players actually enjoy the PvE then or is it a misvote??

While I don't think it's unreasonable to think that - I personally don't have too much of an issue with the PvE...I do think there were a lot of misvotes.

Twysta

Nemek wrote:

Twysta wrote:

I was gonna say... do 7 high tiered players actually enjoy the PvE then or is it a misvote??

While I don't think it's unreasonable to think that - I personally don't have too much of an issue with the PvE...I do think there were a lot of misvotes.

Well that's a bit disappointing, can mod's undo people's votes?
Not sure it's worth getting a mod to lock the thread and start the poll again.

Nemek

Twysta wrote:

Nemek wrote:

Twysta wrote:

I was gonna say... do 7 high tiered players actually enjoy the PvE then or is it a misvote??

While I don't think it's unreasonable to think that - I personally don't have too much of an issue with the PvE...I do think there were a lot of misvotes.

Well that's a bit disappointing, can mod's undo people's votes?
Not sure it's worth getting a mod to lock the thread and start the poll again.

If you change the possible poll answers, it resets the poll.

Twysta

Nemek wrote:

Twysta wrote:

Nemek wrote:

Twysta wrote:

I was gonna say... do 7 high tiered players actually enjoy the PvE then or is it a misvote??

While I don't think it's unreasonable to think that - I personally don't have too much of an issue with the PvE...I do think there were a lot of misvotes.

Well that's a bit disappointing, can mod's undo people's votes?
Not sure it's worth getting a mod to lock the thread and start the poll again.

If you change the possible poll answers, it resets the poll.

Sweet thanks Nemek
-turns out there's also an option to enable re-voting.

LordWill

Lyrian wrote:

This is really a multi-pronged issue.

Is PvE scaling ruining the game...... no.

Is PvE scaling unfairly affecting the high end game ... yes.

Are the high end PvE players who used the "cursed" characters (CMags/Spidey) or combos (Thor/MStorm + CStorm/MN Mags) being unfairly punished for past actions.... yes.

Can the high end PvE players undo the damage to their "cursed" PvE MMR at all.... possible with the recent change, but unfairly requires them to tank on every PvE for the next 7-10 days at a minimum to bring their ratings down to remotely feasible levels.

---

In my opinion, with everyone on the forums aware of at least the basics of how the PvE MMR system works, they should be allowed to choose their own fate with a fresh slate. Everyone should get a one-time PvE MMR wipe to undo past transgressions. If people scale back into the 200+ range again, then well.... they made their own bed; let them live in it. If the devs are too afraid of impacting the new player game with a complete wipe, then reducing base PvE MMR down to level 100 for those affected would be a fair compromise.


The indirect blacklisting of the "cursed" characters + infini-loop combos, plus power creep is likely the devs' intended course of action to address the broken characters (Funbalance will never happen, IMO). Over time, they are going to become forgotten or rendered obsolete. Moving forward, players should not be punished for their actions needed to win in the past previous to these changes.

I disagree agree with this. You make it sound like everyone did something wrong using specific characters. They are tools to use. It's part of the strategy of the game that each character has different intended uses. They intended stunning and healing in the game because if not, it simply wouldn't be there to begin with.

So how does using the characters they created and gave us even remotely amount to being a transgression? Why should we be punished?

You can't bake a cake half way and then say, oops we forgot the eggs, and try and add them in. It just won't work. So I guess they either need to admit they made some very BAD design decisions to begin with and admit they are just merely going through this by trial and error and we should expect this type of mentality from them in the future or they can fix it. Work with us to fix it. Maybe ask us how?

Part of this is they seemly want to hold on to this notion that this is a casual game. Have they taken the time to level up a few 141 characters?
To get high level takes time and quite a commitment. How is that even casual? They want to develop this deep meta game and have lots of characters that take a long time to build up and spec the powers etc, how do you call this casual. I think they need to move away from this mentality. It's really clouding the outlook they have on the game from the high level standpoint. Unless all they want is all the new players to never level up all their characters and just play 30 mins a day. Which how long would it take them to level up a high level roster at that point? Does this make sense?

I'm sure someone could explain this point better than I can.

Unknown

LordWill wrote:

I disagree agree with this. You make it sound like everyone did something wrong using specific characters. They are tools to use. It's part of the strategy of the game that each character has different intended uses. They intended stunning and healing in the game because if not, it simply wouldn't be there to begin with.

So how does using the characters they created and gave us even remotely amount to being a transgression? Why should we be punished?

You can't bake a cake half way and then say, oops we forgot the eggs, and try and add them in. It just won't work. So I guess they either need to admit they made some very BAD design decisions to begin with and admit they are just merely going through this by trial and error and we should expect this type of mentality from them in the future or they can fix it. Work with us to fix it. Maybe ask us how?

Part of this is they seemly want to hold on to this notion that this is a casual game. Have they taken the time to level up a few 141 characters?
To get high level takes time and quite a commitment. How is that even casual? They want to develop this deep meta game and have lots of characters that take a long time to build up and spec the powers etc, how do you call this casual. I think they need to move away from this mentality. It's really clouding the outlook they have on the game from the high level standpoint. Unless all they want is all the new players to never level up all their characters and just play 30 mins a day. Which how long would it take them to level up a high level roster at that point? Does this make sense?

I'm sure someone could explain this point better than I can.

My personal opinion here...

Are players punished for using certain tools available to them to win matches? Absolutely.

Are players at fault for using these tools to win matches? No. The whole current meta in regard to PvE Scaling is to avoid using these characters and to incur damage. Is this silly? Absolutely. To me, the situation is analogous to placing a Band-Aid on a wound that needs a tourniquet and then smothering the wound with Limburger cheese in the hopes that the horrid smell will prevent anyone from looking in that general direction to notice that the Band-Aid is woefully insufficient to close the wound.

The core problem is that when the game originally launched, Gen1 (pre-Punisher) characters were not designed with any real balance in mind. Some of the most glaring issues were addressed (Rags, CStorm, Thor, Wolvie), but some of them still remain to this day (CMags, Spidey). Public backlash was so bad over the previous rebalances, that I believe the devs got cold feet over CMags and Spidey. With the game now in its 7th month, so many players possess CMags and Spidey at playable levels that any real change to either character is going to significantly impact many players in a very real way. These two needed to be rebalanced months ago to minimize the already significant balancing damage those two cause.

What ended up happening in response is "scaling". Instead of fixing the core issue, the devs implemented a system that punishes players for using these characters in PvE events. Again, Band-Aid on a decapitated limb. Spidey stunlocking was still viable at 230, so now the mooks scale to 400, in some sort of obscure attempt to scale match damage so high that a stunlock cycle cannot be reasonably started or the utter pain of needing to play a match for 20-30 minutes to win becomes so obnoxious that players throw away their Spideys.

Stunlock should never been allowed in the first place. Note that all of the stunning characters originated in Gen1 (MWidow, CStorm, Spidey, Cap). Stunning either should not have existed at all, or there needs to be some mechanism (such as a 3 turn immunity to stun after being stunned) to prevent lockdowns from occurring. If lockdowns cannot occur, then astronomical scaling is unlikely to occur and this whole mess becomes a non-issue.

From the PAX news thread, it sounds like that the devs are finally realizing that fixing the stunlock issue really does need to be a Priority 1 issue for the long-term health of the game.

Unknown

I just have to say I'm really confused as to why people are still saying that Spidey and C. Mags are the cause of PvE scaling issues. We've had 2 Heroics now where neither character has been allowed and scaling still smacked everyone in the face. Mid-tiers are being punished just as much with or without them in the mix. High-tiers have it second worse, and low tiers are running away with the top spots in this one if they have any HT covers at all.

People who never had or never relied on the broken characters are being punished in both types of PvE. The problem is the rate of scaling in all roster compositions.

Unknown

I don't why they're using all these tertiary variables in determining scaling. You don't win for finishing matches quickly, you win for placing well in events. Who cares if someone can come out of a battle with full health or splurged on boosts if he wasn't leveraging that into good finishes? Just base the scaling on how well you're doing in the current event, with some modification to the harder if you've done well in the past couple of events, and be done with it.