Game economy issues/fixes

MightyKrakyn

I'm fairly new to posting on the forums, but I want to create a specific post where we can discuss all our issues with the game economy in this most recent update and propose fixes.

1. I think it's obvious to all of us that the change in card packs does not work in our favor. They have not fixed the issues of getting the same card pack after pack, and have charged us more per card for the pleasure. Also, there seems to be no chance of.mythics for the guaranteed rare in the new packs. Suggestions on a more reasonable price point for packs/crystals? What they could do to guarantee our transactions?

2. Mana gems are too costly on all fronts - time investment, pay to play the event with an already devalued currency, the easy chance of getting a dupe mythic from the pack after so much investment - all issues. Do they reduce the cost of the packs? Increase the gains from.events? Make mythics and masterpieces separate? All three?

3. Decrease in rewards - we recently saw that Oath of the Gatewatch II had decreased rewards. Hibernum claims to believe that booster packs = their value in crystals. We need to make sure they realize this is untrue. Also, with the reduction of how many cards each crystal earns us, this puts players at a very disadvantageous position. What concerns do we have with rewards? How do we balance this? Decrease the cost of things that require crystals?

4. Increased costs of everything from bundle.packs to planeswalkers - Most people know that the model they run right now relies on whales, but prices have gotten to the point where even I'm not willing to pay. It's a digital product, for Christ's sake. You're going to see zero purchases soon enough. Why price points would you buy these bundles at? Does this price seem both fair to you and Hibernum? Reduced costs should mean a lot more sales atax a certain price point, but where do we think that evens out?


I would love everybody's serious input, because I'm incredibly mad and would love to give the publishers and devs a cogent and thoughtful description of our grievances with solutions included. Thank you.

orgazmo

Vote with your money and request a full refund of all app purchases.

MightyKrakyn

While that sounds like an interesting plan that I'm not sure will pay off, I've spent a couple thousand on this game because I actually like it. It's a fun game. I just want the devs to listen to us and stop treating us like dumb masses. This update was a slap in the face, and I won't be spending another dime until they can actually show they respect their customers as equals in this economic arrangement.

But let me know how it turns out orgazmo. If I got all my purchases pulled back, that would be two or three weeks of someone's salary over at Hibernum.

madwren

MightyKrakyn wrote:

I'm fairly new to posting on the forums, but I want to create a specific post where we can discuss all our issues with the game economy in this most recent update and propose fixes.

1. I think it's obvious to all of us that the change in card packs does not work in our favor. They have not fixed the issues of getting the same card pack after pack, and have charged us more per card for the pleasure. Also, there seems to be no chance of.mythics for the guaranteed rare in the new packs. Suggestions on a more reasonable price point for packs/crystals? What they could do to guarantee our transactions?

At this point, it's honestly too early for us to tell if the drop rates have changed. Anecdotal data is just that. I'm also tired of having to scroll through scores of uncommons/commons when opening packs, so fewer cards in a pack doesn't bug me that much.

MightyKrakyn wrote:

2. Mana gems are too costly on all fronts - time investment, pay to play the event with an already devalued currency, the easy chance of getting a dupe mythic from the pack after so much investment - all issues. Do they reduce the cost of the packs? Increase the gains from.events? Make mythics and masterpieces separate? All three?

Yes.

If the price of a mythic was fixed at 350 crystals (via special offer), and we get X crystals/week (which I don't know), then we have an idea of the investment it takes to earn that card. I'm sure someone could quantify it better than I can, but I think we all have a certain idea of what that earning rate is, and we're comfortable with it. Let's call that Earning Rate Alpha.

Therefore, introducing a second currency which has a much lower earning rate is extremely displeasing. Let's call that Earning Rate Beta.

Now, if ERA < ERB, but mythics < masterpieces, then it makes some degree of sense to make people work a bit harder for a more rare card.

However, if ERA < ERB, but you STILL have a high chance to pull a mythic, then the system breaks down. No one wants to work for weeks to get a chance at a masterpiece pack, and get a dupe mythic, or a poor one such as Yahenni. I guess to put some "real world" numbers on it, if I can buy a mythic for $10.00, and then you offer me masterpieces for $70.00, how upset will I be if I get a mythic? Very.

Therefore, they either need to increase the earning rate of jewels (which is possible, because we have not seen coalition event rewards yet), reduce the price of packs, increase the chance of masterpieces, or be transparent about just what those chances are. Right now, it is a very poor value in terms of time expended and reward gained.

I've been playing a game called Fire Emblem Heroes. It's fun. You spend orbs to summon heroes. Know what? It tells you, on the screen, what the percentage chance is for each level of rarity. It isn't hard to do that. It doesn't stop people from buying things. It allows them to make more intelligent choices. I'd love to see the same here.

MightyKrakyn wrote:

3. Decrease in rewards - we recently saw that Oath of the Gatewatch II had decreased rewards. Hibernum claims to believe that booster packs = their value in crystals. We need to make sure they realize this is untrue. Also, with the reduction of how many cards each crystal earns us, this puts players at a very disadvantageous position. What concerns do we have with rewards? How do we balance this? Decrease the cost of things that require crystals?


4. Increased costs of everything from bundle.packs to planeswalkers - Most people know that the model they run right now relies on whales, but prices have gotten to the point where even I'm not willing to pay. It's a digital product, for Christ's sake. You're going to see zero purchases soon enough. Why price points would you buy these bundles at? Does this price seem both fair to you and Hibernum? Reduced costs should mean a lot more sales atax a certain price point, but where do we think that evens out?

Rewards, challenges, and entry fees should be scaled by tier. This solves the inequity created by making bronze and silver tier complete platinum-level challenges for 10% of the reward. The cost of things is generally ok, though they really should just let us permanently buy mythics at 350 crystals. One problem is that they have embraced macrotransactions over microtransactions. As more whales become fed up and leave the game, this would seem to be unsustainable.

Unfortunately, it's hard to find where it evens out because we have a wide variety of people playing this game. $20 might seem reasonable to me, but another person might not pay more than $5.

MightyKrakyn

madwren wrote:

Unfortunately, it's hard to find where it evens out because we have a wide variety of people playing this game. $20 might seem reasonable to me, but another person might not pay more than $5.

Very true, that's why I'd like to see what each person thinks is good. I would be fine with paying $20 for a mythic card bundle, and I know a lot of other people would too.

But that's why I want data. See where the curve heads, and show that to Hibernum.

majincob

I think they should have their "randomizer" code audited, have drop rates posted, and post aggregate drop results to prove their "random" claims. That should be the industry standard if not a regulatory requirement for F2P games.

I'm not an economist, but I've heard that uncertainty deflates markets. I would think they would sell more packs if there was more confidence in what people are buying.

One great example is [redacted link].

losdamianos

Machine

How very ironic...

I just opened a KLD booster and opened an Aetherworks Marvel. I won that card last week for my first ever top 5 finish in an event. I still can remember the sheer joy of finishing top 5 and earning a fresh mythic. I don't know if I have to cry or quit this game ONE WEEK later.

How is it that a LOT of people are complaining about getting the same rares over and over again? That's very frustrating and of course it has happened to me as well. I can virtually decorate my walls with copies of Oath of Ajani (admitted, slightly exaggrated). But if this same behavior applies to mythics as well, that's beyond insane. Especially with the difficulty of obtaining these cards and the high devaluation of the crystals and card packs after the latest update.

This RNG just ignores all laws of statistics. The picture above my post says it all.

drabix

I see the posts about the event and I agree, the cost to benefit ratio is out of whack. And I wont be participating.

However, less discussed seems to be the overall scheme actually implemented. A new currency in a game with 2 already. The problem is that it can be bought with real money and it gave them an excuse to jack up prices of all bundles $5. Their timing on bundles and offers were already painfully obvious schemes to entice bulk spending. And we all feel the pain of dupes. 17/7xx pf my cards are mythics and the last 2 mythics I got were dupes.

The fixes are there but the I have a feeling we will never see them. First, increase the earning rate of the new currency and take away the ability to purchase it. This takes away p2w from that particular element, gives people something to work for, and will allow the $5 increase to go away. For dupes, I would say have packs that guarantee one new card of any quality. I mean I so rarely see new cards even new commons and uncommons are welcome.

As a player for roughly a year with a couple of hundred dollars in (both the longest mobile game I have played and by far and large the most money I have spent - to the point of kicking myself in the **** cause full AAA games are a fraction of this) I make these suggestions in hopes that someone might take it seriously. If not, I mean I will certainly not spend anymore, I will not play those events and when I get bored I will move on.

Thanks.

Ohboy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution

majincob

Ohboy wrote:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution

Yes, but without verification of rates with actual data, players are expected to take the word of the dev's over their own perception bias. Not looking so great with the current trust level.

drabix

It has been a minute since I took Econ but I believe you are on the right track. Uncertainty causes people to hoard currency rather than spend it back into the market. However, that is in a market with finite currency circulation. This virtual currency is created when you buy it in unlimited amounts and destroyed when spent because it is not tradeable and neither is what you spend it on. Thus deflation occurs at the hands of the devs, and they deflated their currency by raising the cost of what it buys.

This market type is inherently unfriendly to consumers since it is random and entirely controlled by the vendor. But that doesnt mean they have to be **** about it.

babar3355

The problem is that even if they did increase the drop rates we have no way of knowing that. We just assume the worst.

If you tell us what they are, then tell us what you changed them to you get credit. Instead you are getting skepticism and anger.

You made this bed, enjoy.

Ohboy

drabix wrote:

It has been a minute since I took Econ but I believe you are on the right track. Uncertainty causes people to hoard currency rather than spend it back into the market. However, that is in a market with finite currency circulation. This virtual currency is created when you buy it in unlimited amounts and destroyed when spent because it is not tradeable and neither is what you spend it on. Thus deflation occurs at the hands of the devs, and they deflated their currency by raising the cost of what it buys.

This market type is inherently unfriendly to consumers since it is random and entirely controlled by the vendor. But that doesnt mean they have to be tinykitty about it.

uncertainty there is used in a different context.

Hedge funds flourish all the time while customers are completely uncertain about what goes on in their black box trading. Different kind of uncertainty.

majincob wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution

Yes, but without verification of rates with actual data, players are expected to take the word of the dev's over their own perception bias. Not looking so great with the current trust level.

sorry I was responding to this:

How is it that a LOT of people are complaining about getting the same rares over and over again? That's very frustrating and of course it has happened to me as well. I can virtually decorate my walls with copies of Oath of Ajani (admitted, slightly exaggrated). But if this same behavior applies to mythics as well, that's beyond insane. Especially with the difficulty of obtaining these cards and the high devaluation of the crystals and card packs after the latest update.

This RNG just ignores all laws of statistics. The picture above my post says it all.
0

trashbear

majincob wrote:

Yes, but without verification of rates with actual data, players are expected to take the word of the dev's over their own perception bias. Not looking so great with the current trust level.

Even if people understand the math it doesn't make it any less frustrating.

For example there are 24 mythics in Origins. Assuming the RNG is fair, if you want a complete set of mythics on average you will need to pull 91 mythics. That's a lot of dupes!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_co ... 's_problem

Assuming you get on average 1 mythic every 5 premium packs then you'll need to open 455 premium packs. That's 136,500 mana crystals! If you buy crystals 3000 at a time for $100 that's $4,550! That's insane!

Ohboy

trashbear wrote:

majincob wrote:

Yes, but without verification of rates with actual data, players are expected to take the word of the dev's over their own perception bias. Not looking so great with the current trust level.

Even if people understand the math it doesn't make it any less frustrating.

For example there are 24 mythics in Origins. Assuming the RNG is fair, if you want a complete set of mythics on average you will need to pull 91 mythics. That's a lot of dupes!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupon_co ... 's_problem

Assuming you get on average 1 mythic every 5 premium packs then you'll need to open 455 premium packs. That's 136,500 mana crystals! If you buy crystals 3000 at a time for $100 that's $4,550! That's insane!

enter the new guaranteed mythic packs with rotating pools...

trashbear

Ohboy wrote:

enter the new guaranteed mythic packs with rotating pools...

"Guaranteed". Since the guaranteed mythic packs aren't always available and constantly changing prices, I'm going to do the calculation for Elite Packs. Even assuming the odds of pulling each of the 8 mythic or masterpiece cards is the same (it's probably not) you would still need to open on average 22 packs to get the full set (or even just the one card in the set you're chasing).

If you assume Mana Jewels cost $0.06 (based on the current offer) then that will still cost you $528. That's still insane!

Ohboy

trashbear wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

enter the new guaranteed mythic packs with rotating pools...

"Guaranteed". Since the guaranteed mythic packs aren't always available and constantly changing prices, I'm going to do the calculation for Elite Packs. Even assuming the odds of pulling each of the 8 mythic or masterpiece cards is the same (it's probably not) you would still need to open on average 22 packs to get the full set (or even just the one card in the set you're chasing).

If you assume Mana Jewels cost $0.06 (based on the current offer) then that will still cost you $528. That's still insane!

Sorry I was talking about the elite packs. The key part about these packs are that the pools change every week. By waiting for optimal pools, you can shortcut the dupe process.

Sarahschmara

Ohboy wrote:

trashbear wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

enter the new guaranteed mythic packs with rotating pools...

"Guaranteed". Since the guaranteed mythic packs aren't always available and constantly changing prices, I'm going to do the calculation for Elite Packs. Even assuming the odds of pulling each of the 8 mythic or masterpiece cards is the same (it's probably not) you would still need to open on average 22 packs to get the full set (or even just the one card in the set you're chasing).

If you assume Mana Jewels cost $0.06 (based on the current offer) then that will still cost you $528. That's still insane!

Sorry I was talking about the elite packs. The key part about these packs are that the pools change every week. By waiting for optimal pools, you can shortcut the dupe process.

I'm not sure I understand, Ohboy. Could you explain why some pools would be more optimal than others?

span_argoman

Sarahschmara wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

trashbear wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

enter the new guaranteed mythic packs with rotating pools...

"Guaranteed". Since the guaranteed mythic packs aren't always available and constantly changing prices, I'm going to do the calculation for Elite Packs. Even assuming the odds of pulling each of the 8 mythic or masterpiece cards is the same (it's probably not) you would still need to open on average 22 packs to get the full set (or even just the one card in the set you're chasing).

If you assume Mana Jewels cost $0.06 (based on the current offer) then that will still cost you $528. That's still insane!

Sorry I was talking about the elite packs. The key part about these packs are that the pools change every week. By waiting for optimal pools, you can shortcut the dupe process.

I'm not sure I understand, Ohboy. Could you explain why some pools would be more optimal than others?

He just means waiting till the set of cards which the Elite pack draws from has minimal or no cards which you own. Meaning each player can optimise their chances of getting a new Mythic by spending their 400 Jewels only when they have a lower (or zero) chance of getting a duplicate.

The rotation is 2 weeks per set so in another 9 days or so, the cards in the Elite pack will be a different bunch (tap the i on the top right to see which cards the pack draws from).

Sarahschmara

span_argoman wrote:

He just means waiting till the set of cards which the Elite pack draws from has minimal or no cards which you own. Meaning each player can optimise their chances of getting a new Mythic by spending their 400 Jewels only when they have a lower (or zero) chance of getting a duplicate.

The rotation is 2 weeks per set so in another 9 days or so, the cards in the Elite pack will be a different bunch (tap the i on the top right to see which cards the pack draws from).

Well, sure. I get that they cards rotate in and out. But I was wondering what the formula was for figuring out which ones are optimal. Like this current set; I don't have any of those cards so it's optimal because I will get something new, but I don't really want any of those cards so, even if it's new, it's not optimal for me.

Chances are, the cards I want will be included in packs with cards I already have, right? I doubt we'll see a hixus, ulrich, deploy, crush, GAH, dynavolt, avaricious dragon set rotate (feel free to substitute your own list of "do want" cards)