Origins Planeswalkers need a buff

Sorin81

IMO

I know it's been said before and I know the low cost somewhat justifies their power levels but with the newer planeswalkers available the originals are starting to become obsolete. That shouldn't happen.
So I think that they could use a few minor tweaks just to stay competative.
Here are my suggestions.

Gideon, Battle Forged
Increase to first ability:
At level 3 - flying, vigilance, +2/+2
At level 4 - flying, vigilance, +2/+2,
regenerate 2

Level 60 mana bonuses: +5 | +2 | | | +2

Chandra, Roaring Flame
Reduce cost of third ability from 21 to 15

Level 60 mana bonuses: | +2 | +5 | +2 |

Increase health from 82 to 92

Nissa, Sage Animist
Increase to first ability:
At level 4 - draw 1 card, gain 5 life, gain 5
mana, convert 5 gems green
Reduce cost of third ability from 24 to 18

Level 60 mana bonuses: +2 | +5 | +2 | |

Lilliana, Defiant Necromancer
Increase health from 94 to 104

Level 60 mana bonuses: | | +2 | +5 | +2

Jace, Telepath Unbound
*not sure here, I think his abilities need a complete rework

Level 60 mana bonuses: +2 | | | +2 | +5

Heath increase from 88 to 98

I think these changes would help to make the Origin planeswalkers more playable without overpowering them.
I'm also not opposed to paying for a one time upgrade per planeswalker.

Mainloop25

Now that they cost more crystals to buy, it's an even better idea to buff them now

Sorin81

I agree. Sure they aren't as expensive as any other mono colored planeswalker but that's why I'd be willing to pay for an upgrade to these.

madwren

I think it's planned obsolescence.

wereotter

I think as far as Jace's abilities, he's got a solid set up, though now that the power level of creatures has gone up, the first ability should probably be a -8/-0 instead of -5/-0 as many creatures now go up to 12 power, -5 won't really help you out as much as it used to.

His third ability, however, is garbage, and he needs something completely new. Possibly a support that drains away an increasing amount of mana from your opponent whenever you play a spell or match three gems... Hard to say for sure.

MTG_Mage

Sorin81 wrote:

I'm also not opposed to paying for a one time upgrade per planeswalker.

Thats a good idea, but I dont think they will buff the original 5 to the same power level as the newer PWs.
I have looked closely at PW balance (viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58286) and think that what your asking is a bit much, especially considering

madwren wrote:

I think it's planned obsolescence.

However, this is not fair to new players trying out the game who enter QB and get smoked.
They are more likely to become disgusted and assume this app is 'pay to win' instead of being motivated into buying premium PWs.

I think the original 5 PWs need a +1 to the mana gains on each of their secondary colors (so a +2 total mana gain putting them at a total +7 instead of +5),
also Jace and Liliana should get +8 HP.
Additionally buff Jace's Ingenuity to have the spell gain 2 per level (more comparable to kiora's 4) instead of 1 which it is now so the spell will gain (or be reduced by) 8 instead of 4,
and possibly buff his first ability from -5 to like -6

The idea of a one time cost to buff the original 5 would work as long as it is a small cost. PW costs have been normalized to 295 crystals for a premium mono color and 650 for a dual, so as long as the initial cost and buff totals no more than 150 then it would work.

Sorin81

MTG_Mage wrote:

Thats a good idea, but I dont think they will buff the original 5 to the same power level as the newer PWs.
I have looked closely at PW balance (viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58286) and think that what your asking is a bit much

I don't think that what I proposed is too much and I don't think that it would at all put them at the same level as other planeswalkers but would give them more of a fighting chance.
I haven't looked as closely as you have I'm sure, so I can be flexible.

MTG_Mage wrote:

The idea of a one time cost to buff the original 5 would work as long as it is a small cost. PW costs have been normalized to 295 crystals for a premium mono color and 650 for a dual, so as long as the initial cost and buff totals no more than 150 then it would work.

Here I agree with you. I think 100-150 would be a fair amount.

AngelForge

Here's my suggestion:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=56682

Being a little bit autistic, I posted it in the suggestion forum...

madwren

MTG_Mage wrote:

Sorin81 wrote:

I'm also not opposed to paying for a one time upgrade per planeswalker.

Thats a good idea, but I dont think they will buff the original 5 to the same power level as the newer PWs.
I have looked closely at PW balance (viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58286) and think that what your asking is a bit much, especially considering

madwren wrote:

I think it's planned obsolescence.

However, this is not fair to new players trying out the game who enter QB and get smoked.

I certainly agree it isn't optimal; I simply think they aren't motivated to change it. I personally would like seeing them get a mana boost, because I think their abilities are fine as they are, and unique in that they're mostly relevant and not tied to a specific expansion (e.g., energy, zombies, werewolves, allies).

That being said, while they're clearly behind the power curve, I disagree with Sorin81 that they're not competitive. I have an alt account in silver tier. Because I don't grind runes, my highest levels are Gideon, Nissa, and Ob, all in their mid-50's. In PVP, they're still very competitive, and I never feel like I'm too far behind the eight ball against other planeswalker decks (except maybe the pure explosiveness of Koth, but that's everyone's problem.)

However, when it comes to PVE Events like Revolt Against the Consulate or Oath of the Gatewatch, the limitations of the origins planeswalkers becomes very evident, because they struggle to compete with the sheer speed and power of these arbitrarily-constructed decks. Playing with the origins planeswalkers becomes akin to trying to turn a cruise ship. Sure, you can generate threats or react to the board state, but it takes far longer than it should and somewhat eliminates a large swath of the card collection simply because it takes so long to mount a counterattack.

MTG_Mage

I agree with everything you said @madwren

One problem that is that since PWs are on rotation in the vault, new players dont have a lot of choice besides the original 5.

They are also good representations of the color pie, and can be used with any set of cards.

The older PWs also have the least restrictions on creatures/spells/supports which makes them more versatile (they all have 6+ for all three) For any other PW I would say this is too much and allows for uncreative deck building. Creature/spell/support limits should all be between 4 to 6 but no more than one 4 and at least one 6 (currently only Nahiri has two 4s) so most PWs should have 5 or 6 in everything.

Those are just a few of the reasons why the original 5 PWs should always be rebalanced to remain competitive.

A buff to their mana along with a few other tweaks, such as HP, should be adequate.

AngelForge wrote:

Here's my suggestion:
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=56682
Being a little bit autistic, I posted it in the suggestion forum...

Nice post AngelForge. I somehow missed that in the suggestion forum, and I will browse that category as much as general. I too have posted a bunch of times there and realized it just doesnt get the views like general, so thats what I do now too. You mentioned L2 getting blue, and I just want to add that I also suggested she get 'any zombie' here (see 4th post) viewtopic.php?f=36&t=58942 (hope the recent deckbuilding challange is to make heroic challenges for all PWs)

Sorin81

madwren wrote:

That being said, while they're clearly behind the power curve, I disagree with Sorin81 that they're not competitive.

- words-

However, when it comes to PVE Events like Revolt Against the Consulate or Oath of the Gatewatch, the limitations of the origins planeswalkers becomes very evident, because they struggle to compete with the sheer speed and power of these arbitrarily-constructed decks. Playing with the origins planeswalkers becomes akin to trying to turn a cruise ship.

This is my point. I'm not saying they aren't competative but that they are falling behind and need a boost, especially to mana gains, in order to stay competative.

madwren

Sorin81 wrote:

madwren wrote:

That being said, while they're clearly behind the power curve, I disagree with Sorin81 that they're not competitive.

- words-

However, when it comes to PVE Events like Revolt Against the Consulate or Oath of the Gatewatch, the limitations of the origins planeswalkers becomes very evident, because they struggle to compete with the sheer speed and power of these arbitrarily-constructed decks. Playing with the origins planeswalkers becomes akin to trying to turn a cruise ship.

This is my point. I'm not saying they aren't competative but that they are falling behind and need a boost, especially to mana gains, in order to stay competative.

My bad. I misread your original post to say that they are not competitive, when you said that they needed help to STAY competitive.

Sorin81

Not a problem. I should have made my position clearer.

L1 was the first PW I purchased and I still use her quite a lot even in PVE events. I favour her over L2 simply because she handles my zombie deck better even if she is a little slow.
Jace 1 and Gideon 1 especially, I find myself passing over because they fall too short of their respective counterparts.
I would like that to not be the case.

buscemi

What I find particularly sad about the mothballing of the old planeswalkers is at least 2 of them have highly specialised and unusual methods of play.

Liliana 1's discard ability is different, powerful and fun but puts also constraints on your own ability to play and build your deck in a way that no that planeswalker does. Plus, playing against her keeps you on your toes... hands up anyone who's ever had a powerful card discarded by AI Lilly1 because they weren't paying attention to her loyalty? (*sheepishly raises hand*)

Gideon 1's focus on creature combat is also rare; most planeswalkers whose abilities revolve around creatures, like Nahiri or Gideon 2, would generally rather that their creatures didn't interact at all, and just smashed their opponent in the face as quickly as possible. But Gideon bestows 2 different abilities which makes creatures directly interact in combat, and that's really fun. Creature combat is generally a very low power strategy in this game, and I miss it. Creature interaction is featured a little more prominently in Lilly2 and Arlinn, but they're focused around a very narrow selection of creatures.

If these two planeswalkers will never be buffed, then perhaps can Lilly3 and Gideon3 take these strategies and make them viable again?


P.S. I'm playing Jace 1 again in RatC because I hate rebuilding decks for other planeswalkers and Baral makes anyone blue into a playable option

Ohboy

buscemi wrote:

P.S. I'm playing Jace 1 again in RatC because I hate rebuilding decks for other planeswalkers and Baral makes anyone blue into a playable option

I'm doing the same thing. Definitely BFFs.

I think a better way is to nerf mana gains of all the other walkers. Origin cards are generally too weak now(except a few notable exceptions) because they were balanced around origin walker mana gains.

Nerfing mana gains brings down power level of all the power cards and rebalances them to give mid cost cards more utility. This allows card design more wriggle room and options.

It's also a soft nerf to a lot of the problem cards now that "cannot" be nerfed.

Astralwind

Going by OP's suggestion for Nissa, she would become too overpowered.

GregDreher

Of the original planeswalkers, I find Jace to be the weakest. His ultimate does effectively nothing, and his other abilities don't make a large impact on the board state. Maybe something like 1: -X/-0, 2: Fetch next spell and it gains X mana, 3: Bounce 1/2/3 creatures and they cost X mana more.

Chandra at level 60 just feels underpowered, and I don't feel competitive playing something like Quick Battles with this planeswalker. I think the abilities fit the planeswalker, though the damage one might need to go up. The planeswalker needs more mana production.

Liliana creates interesting play options with her discard ability, but her ultimate should synergize with that ability by allowing any creatures in your graveyard to be returned. She could also use a better second ability.

I think I'm happiest with Gideon and Nissa. Nissa certainly needs higher mana production, though; she should be the best at using green mana in the game.

Sorin81

Astralwind wrote:

Going by OP's suggestion for Nissa, she would become too overpowered.

Maybe so. I am going on pure feeling. I am lacking decent cards in both green and red and to me playing with the cards I have in those colors, Nissa and Chandra feel very underpowered.

Schlemoc

GregDreher wrote:

Liliana creates interesting play options with her discard ability, but her ultimate should synergize with that ability by allowing any creatures in your graveyard to be returned. She could also use a better second ability.

While i agree with your assessment on the other pws, i disagree about lilanas second ability. It scales nicely to deal damage to enemy creatures, as well as direct damage. It also is great at putting a returning dead in the grave after two strikes. It has saved me from being overwhelmed many a times. The mana scale on her is the worst part.

Truly wish these were given an overhaul to remain more competitive. Its the first pws many new players have access to, and they also have some great skills.

wink

Yeah, I think the only problem with Lili's second power is how the activate gems stop working after a couple of turns. If they fixed that, that'd be greatly appreciated.

wereotter

madwren wrote:

I think it's planned obsolescence.

I think just as much it's an issue of people who don't understand the game thinking that the way to make money is to make the next wave more powerful than what came before it forgetting that after long enough with the same options, people will pay for novelty.

If they had left mana gains and health comparable on new planeswalkers, then this wouldn't be an issue. Ob Nixilis would be just as good at Liliana's health and mana gains as he is now.

Jace 2 could have lost his white mana gains over to black for +3 on blue and +2 on black with lower health and been fine.

Comparing recent planeswalkers to each other, I suspect they have since figured this out, which is all the more reason to support a slight buff to the original ones health and mana.