How to deal with Baral

AettThorn
AettThorn Posts: 125
edited March 2017 in MtGPQ General Discussion
So to take a more positive tone on this guy, I figured it might be a good idea to talk about ways to deal with a Baral deck until he gets fixed. Since his endless turn can't really be stopped once it gets going, that means we need to take measures to stop the cycles or address it once it gets going.

For instance, if you can get a Scab-Clan Berserker out on the field before Baral, then the endless spell barrage will eventually cause the AI to suicide.

Any other good ways to deal with it?
«1

Comments

  • buscemi
    buscemi Posts: 673 Critical Contributor
    AettThorn wrote:
    if you can get a Scab-Clan Berserker out on the field before Baral, then the endless spell barrage will eventually cause the AI to suicide.

    Not if he plays with Imprisoned in the Moon, or Devour in Flames.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    AettThorn wrote:
    So to take a more positive tone on this guy, I figured it might be a good idea to talk about ways to deal with a Baral deck until he gets fixed. Since his endless turn can't really be stopped once it gets going, that means we need to take measures to stop the cycles or address it once it gets going.

    For instance, if you can get a Scab-Clan Berserker out on the field before Baral, then the endless spell barrage will eventually cause the AI to suicide.

    Any other good ways to deal with it?

    Any creature solution will die during the first cycle unless you can hexproof it. The best thing about Moon, for example, is that you can just Moon one of your own creatures--for me it's island tokens--and then continually Moon your Moon to keep the cycle rolling.

    The best way is to combine disable and removal, so that you have time to react to his presence on the board and prevent him from going off immediately. AoC and Bonds are the most obvious choices to give you that one-turn reprieve to kill it.
  • AettThorn
    AettThorn Posts: 125
    Am I like the only one that doesn't have Imprison?
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    AettThorn wrote:
    Am I like the only one that doesn't have Imprison?

    Devour in Flames is also great, and you can pair it with Scatter or Negate to remove whatever mana you give them (and continue the cycle).
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    AettThorn wrote:
    Am I like the only one that doesn't have Imprison?

    I don't have it either.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    Disabling him upon casting seems like the most sure-fire way to have a chance against neutralizing b his threat. One-creature Baral decks are more vulnerable to this.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    The key to Baral is keeping him disabled till you can take him out. You can do this from the time he comes out with cards like Thalia, Claustrophobia, Authority of the Consuls, Suppression Bonds, anything you would use to stop a card like Olivia or a haste creature.

    Either take him out with any kill card, trample or vigilance creature on your next turn or use disable cards like Hixus, Encircling Fissue, Chilling Grasp, Prism Array, etc.

    Here is a full list. https://mtgpq.info/cards/search?abilities=120,OR
  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    The point is that having to splash cards in every deck, any time you face a PW with access to blue, is totally game and meta warping. Not a good thing.
  • PastrySpider
    PastrySpider Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
    How about Mind's Dialation. Your opponent gets lots of spells cast but you also get your whole hand's mana filled (except maybe your first card because of Scatter).
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    buscemi wrote:
    AettThorn wrote:
    if you can get a Scab-Clan Berserker out on the field before Baral, then the endless spell barrage will eventually cause the AI to suicide.

    Not if he plays with Imprisoned in the Moon, or Devour in Flames.

    The AI isn't smart enough to remove problem creatures with a burn spell, and will ALWAYS target it at the player if given the option. But yes, if it uses a moon spell your strategy is nullified. I will say, however, in playing a Baral deck that the berserker is incredibly problematic as most my spells cast automatically if I can't get out a moon spell.
  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 978 Critical Contributor
    babar3355 wrote:
    The point is that having to splash cards in every deck, any time you face a PW with access to blue, is totally game and meta warping. Not a good thing.
    That is the definition of meta, having new cards of combinations that affect the playstyle and choices of others.

    Same with a lot of the other big mean mythivs
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    andrewvanmarle wrote:
    babar3355 wrote:
    The point is that having to splash cards in every deck, any time you face a PW with access to blue, is totally game and meta warping. Not a good thing.
    That is the definition of meta, having new cards of combinations that affect the playstyle and choices of others.

    Same with a lot of the other big mean mythivs

    There's a difference between meta, and meta-warping, however.

    Same with a lot of the previous cycling cards that have been fixed.
  • buscemi
    buscemi Posts: 673 Critical Contributor
    wereotter wrote:
    buscemi wrote:
    AettThorn wrote:
    if you can get a Scab-Clan Berserker out on the field before Baral, then the endless spell barrage will eventually cause the AI to suicide.

    Not if he plays with Imprisoned in the Moon, or Devour in Flames.

    The AI isn't smart enough to remove problem creatures with a burn spell, and will ALWAYS target it at the player if given the option.

    I'm not sure that's true.
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    buscemi wrote:
    wereotter wrote:
    buscemi wrote:
    AettThorn wrote:
    if you can get a Scab-Clan Berserker out on the field before Baral, then the endless spell barrage will eventually cause the AI to suicide.

    Not if he plays with Imprisoned in the Moon, or Devour in Flames.

    The AI isn't smart enough to remove problem creatures with a burn spell, and will ALWAYS target it at the player if given the option.

    I'm not sure that's true.
    It isn't. There is some internal calculation in the game that determines whether the AI uses the burn spell on your creature or on you. Unfortunately I have not figured out the formula.

    I've had Olivia (among others) killed by Exquisite Firecraft and Devour in Flames many times.
  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 978 Critical Contributor
    madwren wrote:

    There's a difference between meta, and meta-warping, however.

    Same with a lot of the previous cycling cards that have been fixed.

    Semantics and subjective: When if a card changing and when is it warping the meta?

    There are quite a few answers to baral ecpecially in the kaladesh block. And yes I wil add one of these to my 10th slot of my decks when playing a blue deck which I suspect may have baral in it.
    My only problem with Baral isn't'Baral itself it's'actually Imprisoned in the moon. That card has always been too cheap, and Baral just shows how undercosted it is. In stead of nerfing Baral I'd'suggest upping the cost of Imprisoned to 4.
  • morgue427
    morgue427 Posts: 783 Critical Contributor
    ai i seems to target the highest lifelinker first then next if none highest default creature damaging him, it doesnt seem to be able to tell if the creature has buffs on it making the weaker higher than the other one. use gisela and lone rider in my gideon deck but try to buff lone rider higher if i can only because it have trample, and the ai always chooses gisela if even if lone is higher. seen it happen tons of times
  • buscemi
    buscemi Posts: 673 Critical Contributor
    morgue427 wrote:
    ai i seems to target the highest lifelinker first then next if none highest default creature damaging him, it doesnt seem to be able to tell if the creature has buffs on it making the weaker higher than the other one. use gisela and lone rider in my gideon deck but try to buff lone rider higher if i can only because it have trample, and the ai always chooses gisela if even if lone is higher. seen it happen tons of times

    Interesting. Thx info!
  • julianus
    julianus Posts: 188 Tile Toppler
    morgue427 wrote:
    ai i seems to target the highest lifelinker first then next if none highest default creature damaging him, it doesnt seem to be able to tell if the creature has buffs on it making the weaker higher than the other one. use gisela and lone rider in my gideon deck but try to buff lone rider higher if i can only because it have trample, and the ai always chooses gisela if even if lone is higher. seen it happen tons of times

    Yes, I've seen this sort of pattern too. I played a lot of QB over the weekend and was watching how the AI picks targets - card rarity seemed to be at least one factor, as in about 65 matches it always targeted the highest rarity creature, regardless of relative power.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    span_argoman wrote:
    It isn't. There is some internal calculation in the game that determines whether the AI uses the burn spell on your creature or on you. Unfortunately I have not figured out the formula.

    I've had Olivia (among others) killed by Exquisite Firecraft and Devour in Flames many times.

    One theory is that it won't use burn on creatures if they're below a certain power. It certainly seems to factor that in; for example, it almost always ignores Lightning Runner because of its low power/toughness, despite the fact it's more powerful due to its ability to enhance all my creatures in play.

    I'm also not sure if it can choose multiple Avacyn's Madness targets, though I don't see the card frequently enough to know for sure.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,259 Chairperson of the Boards
    andrewvanmarle wrote:
    madwren wrote:

    There's a difference between meta, and meta-warping, however.

    Same with a lot of the previous cycling cards that have been fixed.

    Semantics and subjective: When if a card changing and when is it warping the meta?

    There are quite a few answers to baral ecpecially in the kaladesh block. And yes I wil add one of these to my 10th slot of my decks when playing a blue deck which I suspect may have baral in it.
    My only problem with Baral isn't'Baral itself it's'actually Imprisoned in the moon. That card has always been too cheap, and Baral just shows how undercosted it is. In stead of nerfing Baral I'd'suggest upping the cost of Imprisoned to 4.

    We've found something to agree on, in that Moon is probably too cheap. I was actually surprised it wasn't 5 when it came out, to put it on par with black.

Categories