Champ v. Bonus systems; is it worth champing trash tier 4*s?

Vhailorx

My Fury is sitting at 5/5/3 188 and has been there for more than year. I must have sold 15 covers for him over that time because i always seemed to have a better use for my iso.

Is there any reason for me to champ him now? I will almost never get another fury cover again (just prog and champ rewards, and maybe a lucky placement here and there). I could play for 2 years and not see more than a handful of his covers. And i will likely have a steady supply of new 4* covers from tokens to deal with moving forward.

So is fury stuck at 188 forever? More importantly the champion system was a way to mitigate the costs of dilution by breathing new life into old characters (if players were willing to invest the iso). The new bonus systems seems to work in direct opposition to the champ system. Why is the game working against itself?

firethorne

I assume he'll still show up in vaults and as progression and placement rewards. So, I'd just say there's a lot less of a reason, but maybe not necessarily no reason.

broll

Sounds like it might not anymore unless they fix this fiasco...

TetsujinOni

I don't see it as "playing against itself" as much as "providing a tensioning mechanic between hoarding and progress".

xidragonxi

This is the one tiny upside to vaulting, is that the risk of wasting covers on old 4* that you didn't want to champ is now mitigated. Unfortunately the risk of wasting covers on new 4*s is higher than ever.

Borstock

Champing is always worth it. You just have to adjust how you spend your ISO. What's worked for me is to never champ a character or spend ISO until I have the extra cover. That seems especially prudent now.

Only exceptions are to make a 4* competitive in a clash.

Fightmastermpq

Not worth it IMO. Most of those older trash tier 4*s will remain unchamped on my roster virtually forever.

This is a rare instance where a change has brought SIGNIFICANTLY less RNG.......yet there are complaints everywhere.

Vhailorx

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Not worth it IMO. Most of those older trash tier 4*s will remain unchamped on my roster virtually forever.

This is a rare instance where a change has brought SIGNIFICANTLY less RNG.......yet there are complaints everywhere.

Except is hasn't really reduced the amount of rng.

Assume we use to get 100 units if RNG tokens.

Now we get 105 units of tokens. That's an improvement.

100 of those units are still RNG, but drawn from a much reduced pool of covers (or the same very diluted pool in the case of clsssic 5*s)

And the extra 5 units of tokens are player controlled.

So were are still getting the same number of RNG pulls as before. We just get them from a restricted set of rewards.

But it's cool because they reminded us that "the chance of an individual 4* is up 3x or 4x!" who doesn't love that?!

Fightmastermpq

Vhailorx wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Not worth it IMO. Most of those older trash tier 4*s will remain unchamped on my roster virtually forever.

This is a rare instance where a change has brought SIGNIFICANTLY less RNG.......yet there are complaints everywhere.

Except is hasn't really reduced the amount of rng.

Assume we use to get 100 units if RNG tokens.

Now we get 105 units of tokens. That's an improvement.

100 of those units are still RNG, but drawn from a much reduced pool of covers (or the same very diluted pool in the case of clsssic 5*s)

And the extra 5 units of tokens are player controlled.

So were are still getting the same number of RNG pulls as before. We just get them from a restricted set of rewards.

But it's cool because they reminded us that "the chance of an individual 4* is up 3x or 4x!" who doesn't love that?!

Of course it has reduced RNG. Dilution is less, you are always getting one of the latest 12 characters - so champ those 12 and never waste a pulled token. Then when you do pull a bonus it gets applied to the character of your choice. You get to start max champing your 4s in the order that you choose. Sure it might be slow at 5%, but it's determined progression - not based primarily on RNG.

IMO this is an incredibly positive change for the game.

Plus 5% more covers for free - all good things.

bbigler

Yes, vaulting certain characters is a slap in the face to the champing system. Plus, this mechanic actually promotes hoarding, because if you open X number of Legendary tokens, you can max cover all 12 x 4*s in the pool.

vinsensual

So now, instead of everyone's rosters looking the same because we all champ the same OP characters, rosters will all look the same because those characters are the only ones we're allowed to build. Not factoring in the ~5% difference between rosters based on who you bonus'ed and characters that got dropped added to the rotation.

OneLastGambit

Funny I could have sworn that in the last year people kept complaining about a diluted token pool and how terrible all the old characters are. Now all of a sudden everyone is devastated about the fact nobody can cover the old **** characters everyone has been shunning for a year?

I have an idea. If those older characters are so important to your roster stick them in your bonus selection and you can still get covers for them at roughly the same rate as before.

bbigler

OneLastGambit wrote:

Funny I could have sworn that in the last year people kept complaining about a diluted token pool and how terrible all the old characters are. Now all of a sudden everyone is devastated about the fact nobody can cover the old **** characters everyone has been shunning for a year?

I have an idea. If those older characters are so important to your roster stick them in your bonus selection and you can still get covers for them at roughly the same rate as before.

You're over generalizing again. Everyone didn't think older 4*s were bad, quite the opposite, hence the overuse of Rhulk, JG, Iceman, ProfX, Thor, Hulkbuster....need I go on?

whycantwesyncpc

OneLastGambit wrote:

I have an idea. If those older characters are so important to your roster stick them in your bonus selection and you can still get covers for them at roughly the same rate as before.

Same rate as before? Can you tell us the great secret to bending reality to make that even remotely true?

mohio

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

I have an idea. If those older characters are so important to your roster stick them in your bonus selection and you can still get covers for them at roughly the same rate as before.

Same rate as before? Can you tell us the great secret to bending reality to make that even remotely true?

Here's just a tiny bit of math i picked out from the cover stores.

Pre-change:
Chance to draw iceman, rulk, etc. from heroic token : 7.5% / 43 = 0.17%
Chance to draw iceman, rulk, etc. from LT : 85%/43 = 1.98%

Post-change:
1 bonus hero draw chances from heroic : 7.5%*5% = 0.375%
1 bonus hero draw chances from LT : 85%*5% = 4.25%
2 bonus heroes from heroic : 0.19% (half of 1 hero)
2 bonus heroes from LT : 2.125% (half of 1)

So, the great secret is only choose one or two bonus heroes. Then you are pulling them at essentially the same rate (if choose 2), or double the rate (if only 1 chosen) as before. And amazingly, those covers are FREE. You still get your normal pull of the latest 12 4* to go along with that iceman or hulkbuster or whatever you chose to focus on getting covers for.

Sorry for the snark (not really), but please at least think a little bit before you go running your mouth about things you aren't sure of.

edit: I want to add one other thing. Those "pre-change" numbers would only have gotten worse and worse. Next season they would add Mordo and Coulson and now we're dividing by 45 instead of 43. Season after that 46, season after that 48, and on and on. "Post-change" those numbers are 100% static (unless d3/demi choose to change pull rates), so no matter how many characters there are out there, you will keep on having the same chance at pulling those bonus hero covers.

Peelman

It is going to help me manage my ISO better. I have XFW and X-23 sitting at 13 covers, so on the next cover I'd need to spend 300k to champ them or lose the cover. Since they aren't in regular packs any more, and I will have fair warning if they're in an event vault or a progression reward, I'll be able to expect when I will champ those guys.

My plan is to do as someone else said and more quickly build up some of the better, new characters like Peggy or Carol (both under 4 covers on my roster). Once I have all of the new characters I like champed, I'll be able to focus on the old guys one at a time.

If I'm ever to a point that I have the spare ISO, I think I will go back and champ all of the 4*s, even if it is just one cover. That first Legendary Token is nice. I'm a long ways off from that though. Just started the 4* transition and only have one champed 4*. With the required characters and boosted guys, even the trash tier 4*s can be nice to have when the time is right.

Peelman

mohio wrote:

Post-change:
1 bonus hero draw chances from heroic : 7.5%*5% = 0.375%
1 bonus hero draw chances from LT : 85%*5% = 4.25%
2 bonus heroes from heroic : 0.19% (half of 1 hero)
2 bonus heroes from LT : 2.125% (half of 1)

It is actually even better than that. The announcement thread was updated with some info on how they came to that 5% number:

Anthony, Demiurge wrote:

Let's take the Heroic Pack. You have a ~71% chance to get a 2-Star, a ~23% chance to get a 3-Star and a ~6% chance to get a 4-Star. When you open a pack, you have an overall 5% chance to get a Bonus Hero. The way we get to that math is to set the chance to get a Bonus Hero per rarity that you draw. When you draw a 3-Star or 4-Star, you have roughly a 17% chance to get a Bonus Hero. When you multiply the chance to get a cover of that rarity with the chance to get a Bonus Hero, you get the [percent] chance to get a Bonus Hero from any one pull from a Heroic pack (~4% for 3-Stars and ~1% for 4-Stars).

From my fuzzy math the chances of getting an additional 4* bonus hero:
1 bonus hero draw chances from heroic : 1.111%
1 bonus hero draw chances from LT : 85%*5% = 4.25% (you were correct on this)
2 bonus heroes from heroic : 0.555% (half of 1 hero)
2 bonus heroes from LT : 2.125% (half of 1) (you were correct on this)

carrion_pigeons

I mean, did you actually *want* to champ Fury?

Before you go complaining about how terrible this system is because your odds of pulling Fury have gone down so much, do some introspection and ask exactly how excited you were going to be about finally pouring that 250k into the character. Don't think of it as losing champ rewards (you actually aren't, anyway). Think of it as saving a quarter million iso.

spatenfloot

Fury is great when boosted to one shot enemies with demolition. If you don't care about that, don't champ him.