Targeted support removal

wereotter

Let us choose what support to destroy, because why would I ever want to use Demolish on a servo token when Gonti's Aether Heart is on the field?

Muche

In https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=55784 it's been suggested to differentiate between support destruction of different colors by ability to target supports.

Currently octal9's version of Anguished Unmaking says

If your opponent controls a Support, Destroy a Support your opponent controls.

My in-game version says

A random Support your opponent controls is Destroyed.

I'm not sure which version is the correct one. Anyways, it shows that there used to be an intent to differentiate it.

Also different spells could either destroy the whole support gem, or just the support (thus not able to cause cascades).

https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=45186 suggested support subtypes, which could make possible targeted removal of only certain subtypes.

wereotter

Random is probably because currently it picks the support that's been in play longest as the one to destroy.

My point is that in a recent PVE match my opponent put out a few servos, played Gonti's and when I cast Demolish, it targeted a servo when the real problem was his completely broken support.

hawkyh1

it could be random with shield weighting. so gonti heart with
3 servos could have a 3/6 chance of being hit instead of 1/4.
this could help in future balancing from overpowered support
with crazy shields and it might also make you think 'should I
reinforce that support now?...'

HH

Delnai

Does anyone know why creature removal is allowed to be targeted but support removal never is? I'd love to hear the devs' perspective on why have it this way; I assume it's a conscious choice based on some general principle. Maybe it's because supports are inherently more fragile, so they want to make it harder to removal any particular support with a spell?

arNero

I agree with OP's sentiment. I'm sick of my Demolish or Conclave Naturalist aiming straight at Clues first when there are things like Starfield or Aetherheart that seriously have to be blown up immediately.

Ohboy

Half the point of these support tokens is to cover for the expensive support.

Why would anyone ever play the more expensive supports ever again if they could be targeted?

To provide a solution for those who feel they must remove a support, the game has provided 3 support nukes of varying intensity in 3 different colors.

Pick your poison and go crazy with the support massacre off you really need to.

aenigmaeffect

Ohboy wrote:

Half the point of these support tokens is to cover for the expensive support.

Why would anyone ever play the more expensive supports ever again if they could be targeted?

To provide a solution for those who feel they must remove a support, the game has provided 3 support nukes of varying intensity in 3 different colors.

Pick your poison and go crazy with the support massacre off you really need to.

I can see that people build decks to try to keep their supports alive. Your logic of "Why would anyone ever play the more expensive supports... if they could be targeted?" Think about all the amazing creatures (ie. Olivia). You don't see people NOT playing it even if there's *cheap* creature removal. Because if a card is that good, the benefits of the card outweighs the risk of the mana spent.

Right now, there's NO WAY to target a support that could be a huge obstacle for your deck if the field is flooded with servos. It's completely random. Imagine that all creature removal was random, and you're facing down Olivia and 2 random **** creatures. (Actually, to make it more even, imagine that the random choices the creature removal can make includes cards in hand, since that's how wide of the selection is on a board full of supports.)

The solution they provided isn't a solution at all in the era of multiple token supports. Targetted support removal needs to happen.

wereotter

Ohboy wrote:

Half the point of these support tokens is to cover for the expensive support.

Why would anyone ever play the more expensive supports ever again if they could be targeted?

To provide a solution for those who feel they must remove a support, the game has provided 3 support nukes of varying intensity in 3 different colors.

Pick your poison and go crazy with the support massacre off you really need to.

There are three in two colors, all locked away at high rarity. Cataclysmic Gearhulk (mythic rare) in white, which also destroys all your other creatures and all your supports, so pretty bad. Consulate Crackdown (rare) also in white, destroys all your opponents supports, which is good, but costs 24 mana, so unlikely you'd run it outside of PvE events where you know your opponent will be putting out a lot of supports, and Release the Gremlins (rare) in red, which destroys three at random and summons you a few creatures. Arguably better than Demolish if you know your opponent will be putting out a lot of supports, but still doesn't address the issue of fights like Tezzeret where your opponent can place multiple support tokens per turn.

The point here is if I know I need to destroy your Aetherworks Marvel, or Planar Bridge, or Dynavolt Tower, or Gonti's Aether Heart, or Starfield of Nyx (you get the idea) I want to be able to target it rather than just let chance decide if that's the support to go.

Ohboy

wereotter wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

Half the point of these support tokens is to cover for the expensive support.

Why would anyone ever play the more expensive supports ever again if they could be targeted?

To provide a solution for those who feel they must remove a support, the game has provided 3 support nukes of varying intensity in 3 different colors.

Pick your poison and go crazy with the support massacre off you really need to.

There are three in two colors, all locked away at high rarity. Cataclysmic Gearhulk (mythic rare) in white, which also destroys all your other creatures and all your supports, so pretty bad. Consulate Crackdown (rare) also in white, destroys all your opponents supports, which is good, but costs 24 mana, so unlikely you'd run it outside of PvE events where you know your opponent will be putting out a lot of supports, and Release the Gremlins (rare) in red, which destroys three at random and summons you a few creatures. Arguably better than Demolish if you know your opponent will be putting out a lot of supports, but still doesn't address the issue of fights like Tezzeret where your opponent can place multiple support tokens per turn.

The point here is if I know I need to destroy your Aetherworks Marvel, or Planar Bridge, or Dynavolt Tower, or Gonti's Aether Heart, or Starfield of Nyx (you get the idea) I want to be able to target it rather than just let chance decide if that's the support to go.

You missed great Aurora, but you're right about it not being available in every colour, and that's valid but OK. Green doesn't have spot removal, but that's how colours are.

Supports are weaker than creatures in the sense that reinforcing doesn't make them perform any better.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone thinking of playing a support deck. Would you still play it if support denial was targeted? Frequently these decks hinge on a single support, like Starfield or dynavolt. Target it down, and the deck is operating at 20% efficiency.

If targeting support was ever implemented, it would be very expensive for how good and versatile it is. Certainly nothing in the vicinity of 3-5 mana spell.

wereotter

Ohboy wrote:

wereotter wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

Half the point of these support tokens is to cover for the expensive support.

Why would anyone ever play the more expensive supports ever again if they could be targeted?

To provide a solution for those who feel they must remove a support, the game has provided 3 support nukes of varying intensity in 3 different colors.

Pick your poison and go crazy with the support massacre off you really need to.

There are three in two colors, all locked away at high rarity. Cataclysmic Gearhulk (mythic rare) in white, which also destroys all your other creatures and all your supports, so pretty bad. Consulate Crackdown (rare) also in white, destroys all your opponents supports, which is good, but costs 24 mana, so unlikely you'd run it outside of PvE events where you know your opponent will be putting out a lot of supports, and Release the Gremlins (rare) in red, which destroys three at random and summons you a few creatures. Arguably better than Demolish if you know your opponent will be putting out a lot of supports, but still doesn't address the issue of fights like Tezzeret where your opponent can place multiple support tokens per turn.

The point here is if I know I need to destroy your Aetherworks Marvel, or Planar Bridge, or Dynavolt Tower, or Gonti's Aether Heart, or Starfield of Nyx (you get the idea) I want to be able to target it rather than just let chance decide if that's the support to go.

You missed great Aurora, but you're right about it not being available in every colour, and that's valid but OK. Green doesn't have spot removal, but that's how colours are.

Supports are weaker than creatures in the sense that reinforcing doesn't make them perform any better.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone thinking of playing a support deck. Would you still play it if support denial was targeted? Frequently these decks hinge on a single support, like Starfield or dynavolt. Target it down, and the deck is operating at 20% efficiency.

If targeting support was ever implemented, it would be very expensive for how good and versatile it is. Certainly nothing in the vicinity of 3-5 mana spell.

That's hardly different than decks built around a single creature, like we see with Ulvenwald Hydra and with Baral, when cheap targeted creature removal exists for every color except green, and even that can use Scour from Existence. Add to that you have berserker, Claustrophobia, Suppression Bonds, etc and taking out key creatures or single creatures for a similar strategy is shockingly easy.

I don't deny your concerns, but consider that targeted removal for enchantments/artifacts (translated into supports for Puzzle Quest) is how it works, it's disappointing that it doesn't work that way here.

To perhaps make a concession to your point, and continue for a good translation from paper magic to this, certain supports could be hexproof so they either have to be removed through matches, or non-targeted support removal. Ultimately my point is supports you mentioned are exactly why targeted removal is needed. Running up a Starfield deck with Inscidious Will and Silverstrike is frustrating when your Demolish doesn't hit Starfield.

Tilwin90

I suspect it's simply a matter of implementation - there is simply no support in the application for this at this point.
Do note that supports are already difficult to track on the board - you have to memorize which support is which, or tap on it. Targetting supports would only add problems to the UX aspect of the application until this part is overall improved.

wereotter

Tilwin90 wrote:

I suspect it's simply a matter of implementation - there is simply no support in the application for this at this point.
Do note that supports are already difficult to track on the board - you have to memorize which support is which, or tap on it. Targetting supports would only add problems to the UX aspect of the application until this part is overall improved.

I would suspect it could be implemented similarly to how card selection is done. Zoomed in version of the card pulls up and you can swipe left or right to see the next in line till you select the one you want or say you don't want to cast the spell.

Rough Tonality

I think targeted support removal, as nice as it would be, is too much. Unless, along with a random destroy (ala generic kill/damage spells that can effect even hexproof creatures) they introduce hexproof supports along with targeted destruction.

I think a happy medium would be just make it so that support destruction only "chooses" from non-servo supports.