A PVP issue persists...

OneLastGambit

In my bracket in the ill fated Valentine pvp there was an 800 point difference between 13th and 12th with 13th at 1100 (about same as most below him) and 12th at a ridiculous 2k (1st finished at almost 3k).

In an event with little to no points available it's insanely clear that many alliances are still able to boost their scores to silly levels even when points are so sparse. The cupcake issue now isn't that big teams can artificially boost their scores it's that they are the ONLY beneficiaries of such practices. Before everyone above 700 points or so could benefit from this. Now only they can.

Either get rid of it entirely or restore it to how it was before. How it is now favours only the top 10% or so.

It doesn't affect me much as I'm only a 900 player anyway but those with weaker rosters (who incidentally got trampled to dust during this pvp) would greatly benefit from it.

Bowgentle

OneLastGambit wrote:

In my bracket in the ill fated Valentine pvp there was an 800 point difference between 13th and 12th with 13th at 1100 (about same as most below him) and 12th at a ridiculous 2k (1st finished at almost 3k).

In an event with little to no points available it's insanely clear that many alliances are still able to boost their scores to silly levels even when points are so sparse. The cupcake issue now isn't that big teams can artificially boost their scores it's that they are the ONLY beneficiaries of such practices. Before everyone above 700 points or so could benefit from this. Now only they can.

There are a million points available.
People at 2K just went to 1400 in the first 10 hours of the event and started hopping for two days from there.

Zeln

I played from the start, got to 700 and then could find nothing more than a few points. I chose 4 star deadpool every time. The top people in my bracket hadn't shielded and were at 1200+.

I'm glad you had millions of points available, but I would have had to get hundreds of thousand of wins to get them.

fmftint

Zeln wrote:

I played from the start, got to 700 and then could find nothing more than a few points. I chose 4 star deadpool every time. The top people in my bracket hadn't shielded and were at 1200+.

I'm glad you had millions of points available, but I would have had to get hundreds of thousand of wins to get them.

The difference between them and you, they hit those +4 point matches till they broke through the mmr mess

Zeln

Where is that point?

wymtime

Briby posted on this in another thread and they think it will be fixed in the next PVP. Already a lot of discussion on this in other threads. Also the point of hitting 2K plus is because you can and it is a different challenge. Also top 5 is a new character

Fightmastermpq

fmftint wrote:

Zeln wrote:

I played from the start, got to 700 and then could find nothing more than a few points. I chose 4 star deadpool every time. The top people in my bracket hadn't shielded and were at 1200+.

I'm glad you had millions of points available, but I would have had to get hundreds of thousand of wins to get them.

The difference between them and you, they hit those +4 point matches till they broke through the mmr mess

Exactly this. I played dozens of matches worth less than 10 points to break through that MMR mess only to be able to queue 5* teams that could easily beat any retal I left, and so to get all the way up to 2k-3k+ would likely require a good bit of hopping and coordination.

firethorne

wymtime wrote:

Briby posted on this in another thread and they think it will be fixed in the next PVP. Already a lot of discussion on this in other threads. Also the point of hitting 2K plus is because you can and it is a different challenge. Also top 5 is a new character

This topic is about more than just the dual Deadpool loaner bugs though. It is about the overall state of PvP, and how it promotes collusion. It is more about all of the things that led to cupcakes in the first place. The Deadpool bug just once again put a spotlight on them, reminding us all they still exist. Removing the cupcakes never removed these problems that led to cupcakes existing. So, ultimately the same thing just happened again in the form of grills. The only real difference is grills are less beneficial to overall bracket scores and casual players than were cupcakes.

Its all been said before. So, I'll just quote what I said of it during the cupcake aftermath.

From viewtopic.php?f=7&t=51488

firethorne wrote:

Cupcakes aren’t the problem. Cupcakes exist because there is a problem. Once you get high enough up, finding matches with a reasonable amount of points for the effort is very difficult. The further up you get, the more difficult it is to progress. Thus, everyone is extremely protective of the points they do have, shield, and reduce the available points up for grabs even further. When you do happen to find a match worth fighting, your points instantly become extremely valuable, and you’re incredibly likely to get hit by multiple people in the the time you’re fighting, thus losing significantly more points than you’ve won during your match. The absolute worse case scenario for winning a match should be breaking even. But, you have created a system where by winning your match, you can end up dropping down the ladder a large amount.

The game isn’t about winning and losing. The AI is stupid, and you’ll win far more matches than you lose. The game is about how quickly you can win, and get back to a shield. Frankly, it is a bad design.

This system that you’ve created also works against many of your own stated goals. It decreases diversity. It forces people to focus on a select few characters that are the fastest. It causes people to mock your characters that, under a reasonable system, are perfectly good and more than capable of winning matches. But, they cannot win them as fast as necessary to prevent losing points. It locks transitioning players with good rosters, but not the right rosters, out of competition. Despite your best efforts at balancing and adding interesting characters to the game, the only ones that matter will be the heavy hitters and the ones that make attackers think twice about taking on a long grueling match where, despite a win in the match, you will still end losing in the event.

Ultimately, all you’re doing is making a shallow attempt at masking the underlying etiology. If you want to argue cupcakes aren’t a symptom of a healthy game, I’m right with you. But, that is significantly different than saying removing the ability to use them will make PvP healthy.

Crnch73

wymtime wrote:

Briby posted on this in another thread and they think it will be fixed in the next PVP. Already a lot of discussion on this in other threads. Also the point of hitting 2K plus is because you can and it is a different challenge. Also top 5 is a new character

My only problem is, this happened in Eye for an Eye too, where I couldn't find matches worth more than 10 points maximum. But whales were finding me with ease, so they steam rolled me in 4 matches for more points than I could earn in 20. Same thing is happening here, where I can only find tiny points, and if I unshield I can be found by all the 5* champ teams. I only have 6 champed 4*, so they shouldn't be finding me so often.

so in back-to-back PVP, I have been screwed out of the 4* reward at 900 points. 2 characters I would have loved to earn. Then with the strange PVE where the final progression was messed up. and then the gauntlet rewards being messed up... yay

Magic

Maybe they should cap the PvP score at 1200. When you get there you receive automatic shield for the event. You can be hit/queued but you will not lose points. First there gets the top place in the bracket, and the others follow the placement (and this continues throughout the season).

Drastic but could inflate the shards with points for others while still giving whales and top players a reason to fight. Granted most of the 1,2k targets would be maxed 5* but who says you can't fight them for 75 points if you want to?

nigelregal

The issue is that MMR is what allows you to see certain teams. the MMR was messed up so you can get into dead zones where you normally could find someones team but now you cannot. In all previous PVP I can see any champion 5* team. most I have no real chance of beating but I can boost and with some luck and team ups do it. In this PVP I can't even see people with more points than me. I am sitting at 1400 points and skip and only see 4 point nodes.

others with higher scores have multiple Champion 5*s so are able to see others around same roster strength

My A team is level 397 XFDP, Level 451 SS, Level 448 PHX so I should be able to Queue someones team that is just about the same level but I am unable to because i'm guessing PHX is not championed which would add 15 levels.

The MMR issue is that I can only Queue teams that are lower than mine but not equal or better. I can't expect people with a lower level roster to have more points than me to allow me to climb higher. I am able to grab some cupcakes though which has allowed me to get to 1400 points but 1/2 of the ones people put out I cannot find.

I do not mind a system where it is harder to find people with high points but it does more heavily concentrate points to people with better rosters more than people who want to put the time and effort and HP towards hopping to get better scores. I can get 3000 points if I wanted to and have before and it does take work just like it does for the people who are getting those scores even in this PVP but the issue is not even allowing others the chance to do that.

OneLastGambit

firethorne wrote:

wymtime wrote:

Briby posted on this in another thread and they think it will be fixed in the next PVP. Already a lot of discussion on this in other threads. Also the point of hitting 2K plus is because you can and it is a different challenge. Also top 5 is a new character

This topic is about more than just the dual Deadpool loaner bugs though. It is about the overall state of PvP, and how it promotes collusion. It is more about all of the things that led to cupcakes in the first place. The Deadpool bug just once again put a spotlight on them, reminding us all they still exist. Removing the cupcakes never removed these problems that led to cupcakes existing. So, ultimately the same thing just happened again in the form of grills. The only real difference is grills are less beneficial to overall bracket scores and casual players than were cupcakes.

Its all been said before. So, I'll just quote what I said of it during the cupcake aftermath.

From viewtopic.php?f=7&t=51488

firethorne wrote:

Cupcakes aren’t the problem. Cupcakes exist because there is a problem. Once you get high enough up, finding matches with a reasonable amount of points for the effort is very difficult. The further up you get, the more difficult it is to progress. Thus, everyone is extremely protective of the points they do have, shield, and reduce the available points up for grabs even further. When you do happen to find a match worth fighting, your points instantly become extremely valuable, and you’re incredibly likely to get hit by multiple people in the the time you’re fighting, thus losing significantly more points than you’ve won during your match. The absolute worse case scenario for winning a match should be breaking even. But, you have created a system where by winning your match, you can end up dropping down the ladder a large amount.

The game isn’t about winning and losing. The AI is stupid, and you’ll win far more matches than you lose. The game is about how quickly you can win, and get back to a shield. Frankly, it is a bad design.

This system that you’ve created also works against many of your own stated goals. It decreases diversity. It forces people to focus on a select few characters that are the fastest. It causes people to mock your characters that, under a reasonable system, are perfectly good and more than capable of winning matches. But, they cannot win them as fast as necessary to prevent losing points. It locks transitioning players with good rosters, but not the right rosters, out of competition. Despite your best efforts at balancing and adding interesting characters to the game, the only ones that matter will be the heavy hitters and the ones that make attackers think twice about taking on a long grueling match where, despite a win in the match, you will still end losing in the event.

Ultimately, all you’re doing is making a shallow attempt at masking the underlying etiology. If you want to argue cupcakes aren’t a symptom of a healthy game, I’m right with you. But, that is significantly different than saying removing the ability to use them will make PvP healthy.

This is pretty much my point.

I don't blame the people that abuse this mechanic, I blame the people who created it and are still perpetuating it. It doesn't even affect me in the slightest I simply think if the devs are to allow the mechanic to exist then they should return it to how it was then everyone can benefit. Though id prefer it to be removed entirely as the pvp game would then be about your ability and roster and not who you have truces and hops with

wymtime

Crnch73 wrote:

wymtime wrote:

Briby posted on this in another thread and they think it will be fixed in the next PVP. Already a lot of discussion on this in other threads. Also the point of hitting 2K plus is because you can and it is a different challenge. Also top 5 is a new character

My only problem is, this happened in Eye for an Eye too, where I couldn't find matches worth more than 10 points maximum. But whales were finding me with ease, so they steam rolled me in 4 matches for more points than I could earn in 20. Same thing is happening here, where I can only find tiny points, and if I unshield I can be found by all the 5* champ teams. I only have 6 champed 4*, so they shouldn't be finding me so often.

so in back-to-back PVP, I have been screwed out of the 4* reward at 900 points. 2 characters I would have loved to earn. Then with the strange PVE where the final progression was messed up. and then the gauntlet rewards being messed up... yay

Eye for an eye ran fine for me. All I saw were 5* teams. The V-Day PVP I saw 3* and 4* players while I climbed. Now PVp is more like eye for an eye where I see 5* players. Right now it seems back to normal.

acescracked

I played with zero coordination and finished with 1584 in slice 5 & 3rd in scl7.

Someone in a sister alliance played the same way and finished 6th in same bracket with 1466.

What's the issue that persists?

WelcomeDeath

Bowgentle wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

In my bracket in the ill fated Valentine pvp there was an 800 point difference between 13th and 12th with 13th at 1100 (about same as most below him) and 12th at a ridiculous 2k (1st finished at almost 3k).

In an event with little to no points available it's insanely clear that many alliances are still able to boost their scores to silly levels even when points are so sparse. The cupcake issue now isn't that big teams can artificially boost their scores it's that they are the ONLY beneficiaries of such practices. Before everyone above 700 points or so could benefit from this. Now only they can.

There are a million points available.
People at 2K just went to 1400 in the first 10 hours of the event and started hopping for two days from there.

There are plenty of points available....to you. Not everyone. If youve got 5*, then once you break through mmr you can q those high point teams that are coordinating. If you were running 4s in that event and broke through, youd instantly get killed by the 5* teams that could now q you due to the broken mmr and your qs would be teams you likely couldn't beat. Also, scores only went so crazy all over because the 5* players that don't hold hands and just play werent able to q and hit the high teams until after they got cp, mininum. It was like having a free shield. I suspect scores will normalize some this event and 2k will be the high water mark.

WelcomeDeath

Also, let's not kid ourselves. "Cupcakes" are really only for 5* teams now or maybe persistent 4* teams that also use check rooms on Line. The real issue is you now need a 5* team to get the 4* rank rewards and a 4* team to get the 3* rewards, but that has more to do with the way CL are set up. If cl8 t200 = cl7 t50 and cl8 t2t = cl7 t5 it would make more sense, prevent tanking CL, and be more rewarding in general. Getting 51st in the highest cl and getting a 2* is just ridiculous.

I'd also like to point out that, while many advanced roster players were happy to score higher so easily, many were annoyed they had to push so much, in shards where they like to keep the points low and reasonable.

OneLastGambit

acescracked wrote:

I played with zero coordination and finished with 1584 in slice 5 & 3rd in scl7.

Someone in a sister alliance played the same way and finished 6th in same bracket with 1466.

What's the issue that persists?

I'm not saying you can't do it without coordination. By my own admission I play to 900+ without coordinating. My point was there's still silly scores and people utilising a system that shouldn't exist to artificially inflate their scores. Surely PvP should be about how good you roster is and how well you can use it. Either remove the mechanic for cupcaking/grilling or just put it back to how it was then those lower level players can benefit too.

I'll repeat...it doesn't affect me at all. But it might make PvP more tolerable for people at 3* level. If you have a solid 4 or 5* roster (as. I suspect you do) then you can absolutely hit 1200 without help. If you don't however and are rocking a couple of champed 3s then your glass ceiling is around 600 or so

SummerGlau

looks like i picked the right time to quit PvP