Deckweight and Planeswalker weight values

MTG_Mage

rarity___point value________tier__________score_________M_____R_____U or C
C________1______________bronze_______10-29_________0-2___1-3___5-9
U________2______________silver________30-39_________1-3___2-4___3-7
R________4_____________gold__________40-49_________2-4___3-6___0-5
M________8_____________platinum______50-low60s_____3-6___4-7___0-3

If decks had a value based on the cards in them then matchmaking would be more balanced.
In this system commons are worth 1, uncommons 2, rares 4 and mythics 8.
This gives a deck a point value between 10 and 80.
Decks with scores of 10-29 will be more common in bronze league, and typically run 0-2 mythics and 1-3 rares.
Decks with scores of 30-39 will be more common in silver league, and typically run 1-3 mythics and 2-4 rares.
Decks with scores of 40-49 will be more common in gold league, and typically run 2-4 mythics and 3-6 rares.
Decks with scores of 50-low 60s will be more common in platinum league, and typically run 3-6 mythics and 4-7 rares.
At all levels 0-5 each commons or uncommons is typical.
Note that if a deck is low in points it does not mean it is not strong, it just is low in rares and mythics. It may synergize well with the PW using a bunch of commons and uncommons and can beat much higher point decks that are not optimised.



Planeswalkers are NOT created equal. With the point system below the current planeswalkers have values of up to 20 points. This value added to deck weight gives a number with an upper limit of 100. The matchmaking system can add the static PW value to the deck weight, then consider win/loss history AND if the player has played this specific opponent in the last 5 matches.

You can see that some PWs need rebalancing to get within the optimal zone of 13 to 17.

______________MB(-5)____2c____abil.____HP____restraints____total
1__ ajani _______3_________2_____5______4_____2___________16
2__ arlinn kord___1_________2_____4______3_____1___________11____slightly low
3__ chandra_____0_________0_____8_____0______3___________11___.*correctable
4__ garruk______3_________0_____3_____3______1___________10___low
5__ gideon Ally__1_________0_____6_____2______2____________11___slightly low
6__ gideon B____0_________0_____6_____2______3___________11___.*correctable
7__ jace________0________0_____4_____0______3____________7_____.low
8__ jace2 _______4________0_____8_____2_____1____________15
9__ kiora_______1________2_____10____3______2____________18____high
10_ koth_______2________0_____10____3______1____________16
11_ liliana______0________0_____6_____1______3____________10____.slightly low
12_ liliana2_____4________0_____5_____4______0____________13
13_ nahiri______3________2_____8_____2_____ -1____________14
14_ nissa_______0_______0_____8_____1______3_____________12___.*correctable
15_ ob nixilis____0_______0_____8_____4______3_____________15
16_ saheeli rai__6________2_____5_____4______3_____________20____high
17_ sarkhan____2________2_____5_____4______3_____________16
18_ sorin______3________2_____8_____0______1_____________14
19_ tezerret____2________0_____4_____1______2_____________9_____low
20_ dovin baan_1________2_____6_____4______1_____________14
21_ chandra2___4_______0_____3_____1______1______________9_____low
22_ nissa2_____4_______0_____8_____3_______0_____________15
______________0to6___0/2___0to10___0to4__ -3to3____________up to 20 {optimal is 15 +/-2 (13-17)}

* correctable = all 0 mana bonus pws need to get an additional +1 to their secondary colors, giving them +2 which will put them within the optimal range
if the slightly low PWs get the correctable treatment (if applicable) and are bumped up in HP they can achieve the optimal range

MB (-5) = mana bonus total, subtract 5. This is to keep the total numbers low and the lowest bonus (original 5) have a total of +5

2c = simply if the PW is 2 Colors then it gets 2 points, since being 2 colors is an advantage

HP (1 for every 8 HP from 80 to 120)
80-88

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0
89-96

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1
97-104----2
105-112---3
113-120---4

creatures,spells,supports. If limit is 6+=1, 5=0, 4>=-1
I realize that decks should typically only run 3-4 creatures max, so creature limits should not be an issue since the lowest a PW is limited to is 4, however I gave it the same weight as spells and supports.

ability=0-10 (4-1,2-2,3-3, 1subjective)
1,2 - 2 how often, 2 how good
3 - is it aimed for, how good
A PWs first ability is their most used and defining. It is ranked 0-4 with 0-2 being how good, and 0-2 how often its used. The second ability is their least important and is worth half as much as the first ability so it is 0-2 total. The third ability is rated 0-3 and what is looked at is how good it is and if it is aimed for while playing the PW.

all first abilities are 3,6,9
all second abilities are 9,12,15
all third abilities are 15,18,20,21,24…why 20!? Adjust the 2 at 20 to 21 which are Koth and Saheeli



My suggested adjustments to get all PWs in the 13 to 17 range:

Arlinn Kord:
human side level 3 needs to be changed to not werewolf specific

Saheeli Rai:
nerf all her secondary mana gains, and make her third ability cost 21 instead of 20.

Tezzeret:
add to his first ability to give [1,2,3,all] supports in play +1 shield AND gain [1,2,3,4] mana to each support in hand

Chandra2
rethink all her abilities (needs the Sorin treatment)

Jace:
-Buff Jace's Ingenuity to have the spell gain 2 per level (more comparable to kiora's 4) instead of 1 which it is now so the spell will gain (or be reduced by) 8 instead of 4, give more hp.

Ajani: (I know he has a good # of points, but I still think he needs adjusting)
-Buff lightning helix to to target creatures OR PLAYERS, and/or reduce the loyalty to 9, and/or increase damage/lifegain to 8
-Buff reprisal to destroy 6 gems per tier (24 max) and reduce loyalty cost to 15

Garruk:
change his pic, and the token creatures he makes with loyalty can have the following abilities:
-Snake: "when this creatures power is 8 or greater, it gains deathtouch"
-Wolves: "when this creatures power is 12 or greater, it gains trample"
-Beasts: "when this creatures power is 16 or greater, it gains defender"

Koth:
-make his third ability 21 instead of 20, consider raising the cost of his 1 and 2, consider buffing his support limit up from 3

Kiora:
-nerf the octopi tokens from 8/8 each to 6/6 (applies to crush of tentacles as well)

Fake Cards

I thought this was a cool grading system so I figured I'd bump it.
#DontBuffAjani

Astralwind

Oh I really like the Garruk's skill suggestion. Makes more sense than summoning 4x of each type.

MTG_Mage

Thanks for liking it

I think checking the weight of your decks to see how they compare to each other is worth the time adding up. I do it in excel so the math is automatically done. If a bunch of people do it then you can see how yours compare to others and to decks in your league.

Planeswalkers are NOT created equal, so the system breaks down all measurable stats of each and gives a value up to 20. The difference can be significant, but when deck weight is added to it and you get a number out of 100 then the PW difference is not as big. Plus when you see the glaring weak points of certain PWs, it makes it easy for the devs to rebalance them fairly when compared to all other PWs.

madwren

Astralwind wrote:

Oh I really like the Garruk's skill suggestion. Makes more sense than summoning 4x of each type.

Seconded. It's a shame his skills are so limited--I like the added scope in this suggestion.

PastrySpider

Garruk suggestion is genuinely brilliant. Best change I've yet heard suggested to a planeswalker.

AngelForge

It doesn't make sense to value all mythics and rares the same. There are only some overpowered cards that need to be put back in place, IMO.
That way some cards would even be played less then they are already.

buscemi

A lot of work went into this. Could we maybe start a seperate forum for all the posts like this which contain a lot of sensible ideas that get ignored?

Mainloop25

Wouldn't that just make them easier to ignore?

MTG_Mage

buscemi wrote:

A lot of work went into this. Could we maybe start a seperate forum for all the posts like this which contain a lot of sensible ideas that get ignored?

I would cool with someone taking this thread and pinning it in say 'MtGPQ Deck Strategy & Planeswalker Discussion' or a another/new tab.

However I have noticed that posts not in 'General Discussion' get significantly less views and comments. I have had a lot of what I think are good ideas and threads over the last year, often in 'suggestions and feedback', but dont often get a lot of replies...and never had recognition from a dev.

Feel free to check my post history and resurrect any dead threads, or just add to this one as I really like feedback, and hopefully the added discussion will get the devs attention.

Astralwind

I revisited the suggested scoring for cards and planewalker.
Up to 80 for deck and up to 20 for planewalker.
I see how nice it totals up to 100 and i think specifying all those points and attributes is a lot of thinking and work.
Just want to provide some extra consideration.

First, let's examine a mono color deck. Say, green deck.
Let say you have a specific green deck of value amounting to say, 60. A potential platinum tier deck.
The eligible planewalkers for that green deck are, Nissa, Nissa2, Garruk, Arlinn & Kiora.
Nissa - 72
Nissa 2 - 75
Garruk - 70
Arlinn - 71
Kiora - 78
There's no guarantee that the same green deck performs as per the above total score.
I understand the total score is to meant to assist in matchmaking decisions and is by no means able to consider the synergy of cards and planewalker.
If possible, I feel that the is going to improve matchmaking. It's going to punish players who just throw in mythic cards without considering their synergy to the deck.
To achieve the desired matchmaking outcome, I think we need to take into account of win streaks/win percentages too.
So the formula of, deck + planewalker is a good start. Perhaps win percentages can be introduced so players with good win rates face one another.
An alternative, more tedious way to the deck score is to assign a value rating to each card.
Each card can be rated different based on its type.

Spell card - cost, effect, deck color

Spells can be divided into many types:
card draw, hand card discard, creature removal, creature disable, creature return, creature control, creature buff power, creature buff defense, creature buff both, creature grant ability buff, creature grant ability debuff, support removal, creatures wipe, support wipe, permanents wipe, planewalker damage deal, creature damage deal, token summon, gems manipulation, mana gain, mana drain, card cost increase, card cost reduce etc.
So creature disable until end of your turn vs creature disable until beginning of your next turn, the latter will score higher. creature grant ability - reach would be better than creature grant ability - vigilance etc.

The cost of the cards will then be judged based on the type of effect and its scale. Deck color is also considered. 2 colors are better than one.

Creature card - cost, power, effect, color

Creatures can be divided similarly like the spells above. Except, their power and toughness need to be considered with respect to the cost.

Support card - cost, effect, shield(durability), color
Similar to spell cards, except durability comes in.

Perhaps, a small bonus score can be assigned based on the popularity of the card. So Olivia will score higher than World Breaker. It's pointless to argue Olivia vs Decimator of the Province vs Gaea's Revenge vs Tyrant of Valakut so they all have a same flat value for popularity.
e.g. Olivia +2; Thing in the Ice +1; Grim Flayer +0

Once we can build a library list of cards and its respective values, it would be very clear which cards are better and deserve a higher score.
e.g. For creature removal, To the slaughter would rank higher than Unholy hunger.
One may argue that unholy hunger is great in Sorin's deck. However, To the slaughter is cheaper and its delirium is great against ingest, for its cost.
I believe the community will agree with the above for To the Slaughter over Unholy hunger.

For assigning of score, that's something that can be brainstormed further.
It can be tough because it's hard to decide between, creature removal vs creature return.
Is removal better than return? Return is great because it slows the opponent and waste opponent's mana to cast again. But if the creature has summon effect, that would take place again. Perhaps, they're equal.
What about permanent creature disable effect vs creature removal? Creature disable seems better in my opinion since it uses up one slot on the battlefield when we play with AI.
Perhaps we can start by deciding on a rating system to rate cards, and we can slowly build up the list with the help of the community. Even if it's not going to be implemented, it's fun and can be useful references to everybody.

MTG_Mage

Thanks Astralwind for taking a deeper look at this system.
I do want to point out that I do mention that win/loss record and match history is mentioned in the second paragraph of the original post.

You went into detail that all cards are NOT created equal thus the flat rate of C=1, U=2, R=4, M=6 will not work with the overpowered cards.

I have compiled a list of what I call Tier 1 and Tier 2 cards, or 'Must Haves' and 'very good' where must haves generally will find a home in any deck they can fit in.

To make it easier and not to go over and rate all 1000+ cards separately, here is a list of the best and second best cards.
Cards in the must have list get +2 value if they are C,U,R and +3 for M
Cards in the very good list get +1 for C,U,R and +2 for M
if someone wants to make a list of R and M that are so bad they deserve -2 or -3 (not worth it for C and U due to point values) or comment on my list, please do
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Cards that are 'must haves' and by default should be automatically added to a deck if running these colors:

White
creature: Gisela(M)
spell: deploy the gatewatch(M)., smite the monstrous(C)
support: Hixus prison warden(M).

Blue
creature: drowner of hope(M).
spell: engulf the shore(M)/crush of tentacles(M)., exert influence(M)./welcome to the fold(R), imprisoned in the moon(R)./turn to frog(R)
support: prism array(R), thopter spy network(M).

Black
creature: noxious gearhulk(M).
spell: to the slaughter(R)/grip of desolation(U), Behold the Beyond(M)
support: oath of liliana(R).

Red
creature: volcanic rambler(U)
spell: inner struggle(U)/exquite firecraft(R), uncaged fury(C)
support: -

Green
creature: gaea's revenge(M)
spell: Nissa's renewal(M)./seasons past(M).
support: fertile thicket(C)/nissas pilgrimage(C), zendikar resurgent(M), from beyond(R).

Colorless
creature: hangarback walker(M)
spell: scour from existence(C), haunted cloak(R)
support: mirrorpool(M), corrupted gravestone(R)/shrine of the forsaken gods(R), Tamiyo's journal(R)


Multicolor
creature: Olivia mobilized for war
(M), Ulrich[GR](M).
spell: anguished unmaking[BW](R).
support: fevered visions[UR](R).



overall
creature: Olivia(M) - so good, it is definately the best creature in 2 colors AND overall. A MUST have

spell: exert influence(M) - destroy spells are best. 5 cast cheap black ones are awesome (especially with BtB). Mass removal is good, but 1 sided mass removal is even better as with engulf/crush. Only reason exert beats out those is it is a removal spell for the opponents best creature AND effectively a creature spell for you as well! plus its way undercosted. Only downside is you need space for it, but the best decks typically only run 3 creatures so it should not be a problem.

support: mirrorpool(M) - all the colorless top tier supports are great since they are essential boosts to any deck (and all decks should run at least one of them) but mirrorpool works best since it is great with creatures, AND its interaction with spells allow you to cast for cheap all the top tier high cast spells



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Very good:

White
creature: Linvala,the preserver(M), serene steward(U), consuls lt(U), Avacyn(M)., lone rider//it that rides as one(U)
spell: enshrouding mist(C), not forgotten(U)
support: oath of gideon(R), starfield of nyx(M), supression bonds(R)., knightly valor(U)

Blue
creature: harbinger of the tides(R), thing in the ice(M), forgotten creation(R)
spell: days undoing(M)., tightening coils(C)
support: sphinx's tutelage(U), insidious will(R).

Black
creature: graveblade marauder(R), diregraf colossus(R), Gonti(R).
spell: transgress the mind(U)/infinite obliteration(M), from under the floorboards(R), dark petition(R)
support: retreat to hagra(U)

Red
creature: tyrant of valakut(M)., wolf of devil's breach(M)., reckless bushwacker(U), combustible gearhulk(M).
spell: demolish(U), turn against(U), devils' playground(R).
support: harness the storm(M)

Green
creature: ulvenwald hydra(M), undergrowth champion(M), sage of ancient lore(R), herald of the pantheon(R)., Conclave Naturalists(U)
spell: animist's awakening(R)., mantle of webs(C), nissa's revelation(M), plummet(C)
support: oath of nissa(R)


Colorless
creature: desolation twin(R)., mockery of nature(U), lashweed lurker(U), drownyard behemoth(U)
spell: helm of the Gods(R)
support: true-faith censer(C), sword of the animist(R).


Multicolor
creature: Iroas's champion(U), Mina and Denn, Wildborn[GR](R), prized amalgam[BU](R), noyan dar[UW](R), reflector mage[UW](U)
spell: -
support: -

other
creature: Embermaw Hellion (R, mono red), defiant bloodlord(R, good with sorin), somberwald alpha(U)