Plz,devs rename nop

Alve

I use Olivia in my red node both for Nahiri Deploy and Koth Zoo. Koth Zoo uses neither Deploy, nor Decimator, just Olivia and some other cards, including plenty of mythics (one I bought, one I got from a pack after buying crystals and spending a bunch of them on a special set, one I got from coalition rewards, others are from individual rewards, QB and random packs). 7 ribbons rate is around 50%, but I haven't tested extensively - it's pretty foolproof unless I end up drawing 4 UF or end up matching loyalty for ten turns, so I switched to ND. My Nahiri Deploy uses Olivia, Deploy (duh) and some other creatures, none of them being the pig or any coalition rewards. 7RR is around 75%, I'd say, but it's extremely luck-based and weak against removal-heavy decks, so I'm planning to test other solutions before the next event. Like any other Deploy deck, when it hits, it hits big, but it can also leave you pretty disappointed

My main problem with Decimator is that if you don't happen to cascade into three different creatures at once or Deploy in a lucky order, its abilities aren't used optimally. With Olivia it's easier to use her to her full advantage. Plus, I like flying/lifelink much more than Berserker.

Btw, I don't think that Steve was implying that paying players will win 100% of the time or that the node was tailored to them. He said that they gain a certain advantage and he has a point. You also have a point - being from a top 10 coalition is an advantage. Having a lot of time/few irl obligations, financial security, coming from the right country, coming from the right time zone, being one of the people who have been playing this game since week one are also advantages. Many of them could be at least minimized if the dev team introduced a Standard format. For now we just have to agree that life isn't fair and red NoP node makes that extra clear :P

Abenjes

the 5 turn win objective is purely random. I ran a koth deck with GRB, Ulrich, piggy and castigator 2 nop events ago it won every game and took out the 5 point speed objective.
last nop the same deck couldn't even win in 10 turns, curse you merciside

Falizar

How bout we just get the old Nodes of Power back.

That would at least be a start.

Alve

Please, stay on topic. Do not attack other users.

EDIT: Some posts have been removed from this thread. Please, respect other forum users and their opinions, even if you happen to disagree with them.

watman

Just for the 5 rounds kill - Nahiri zoo: Devils, Oath of Gideon, Parish, Visionary Augmenter, Steward, Bushwacker, Volcanic Rambler, that 4/4 spirit for 7 mana, Coldnight Castigator, double-strike spell...
All it requires is a nice cascade in the first two turns to drop three creatures (Castigator is a pro-tip!) and one activation of 1st PW ability
TA-DAH!

Mainloop25

Alve wrote:

Please, stay on topic. Do not attack other users.

EDIT: Some posts have been removed from this thread. Please, respect other forum users and their opinions, even if you happen to disagree with them.

Although it was sorta entertaining, thanks for getting rid of that nonsense

span_argoman

@Alve @Ohboy
While I agree with many of the points you two are making about the pros and cons of Olivia and Decimator, I think we would be missing the key card to hitting that 5 rounds objective in that discussion. Deploy the Gatewatch is the real card that makes a difference.

I'll put it in the perspective of the resources you have to win and hit the objective. For the 5 round objective, you have:
5 gem matches and the corresponding mana and loyalty gained (supplemented by cascades and match-5s)
3 creature slots and X number of attacks depending on when your creatures were summoned
7 cards drawn out of 40 (supplemented by draw and fetch effects)
Your planeswalker's abilities

On gem matches, mana and loyalty the only ways to bolster gains are through picking the right planeswalkers, gem conversion or board destruction. But every card that does gem conversion or board destruction while not helping to reduce the opponent's life total is probably more harm than good. You are replacing a certain outcome from casting a card (dealing damage to the opponent) with an uncertain one (hopefully getting a few match or cascade) which probably messes with the consistency of your deck.

3 creature slots only means that you want as much as possible for your limited casts to not have an issue of holding back the summon of a creature cause you don't have any creature slots left. But this has to be balanced against the challenge of only drawing 7 cards (unmodified) out of a deck of 40 cards which creates an inherent conflict (which I personally find refreshing).

It also means you want to pack a lot of damage into those three slots. Which means the creatures should be:
1. Mana-efficient.
2. Beefy or easy to summon out multiples of.
3. Able to imbue Haste to themselves and your other creatures.

The card restriction is the biggest issue though. Without extra draw or fetch , you have 7 cards. Ok you preferably want 3 creatures to maximise the damage per turn. But then you have to somehow match enough mana to be able to summon all of those creatures out, and they may not be the first three cards of your 7 cards (or worst you may not even draw them at all, 7 out of 40) which makes this quite a matter of luck because even with ideal creatures you have to draw the creatures in the right order and have enough good matches on the board to summon them out.

Well enter Deploy the Gatewatch. First thing is one card becomes three, helping with the card draw issue. Second thing is they all go straight to the battlefield which means you skipped past the problem of cards being in hand first before you can match gems to charge them with mana hopefully quickly enough before the 5 rounds are over. So with proper tweaking of the deck creature composition you can get massive value on this one card, if you can draw it.

The creature selection process is easy. Based on the criteria, creatures that give other creatures Haste and are beefy enough to be worth Deploying: Decimator and Olivia. Decimator's works on creatures that were summoned before it, Olivia's Haste works on creatures that were summoned after it. As Alve pointed out, Olivia's Haste is more frequently relevant as it applies to newly summoned creatures after Olivia. But it also eats a card each time it does that and you have precious few when chasing that 5 round objective (7 cards without bonus draws or fetch). But both fall right in the category you want to maximise damage so might as well include both. The third creature should be a solid damage dealer, so there's:
Metalwork Colossus being the most mana-efficient 12/12 in-game, or
Ulrich of the Krallenhorde who gets the chance to transform into an even more massive form, or
Angel of Invention for an 8/8 with +3/+3 to all and Fabricate 2, or
Tyrant of Valakut for a 9/8 that helps to dish 6 damage to all on summon, damaging the opponent and helping to mitigate Decimator's Berserker bestowment, or
Emrakul, the Promised End who disables the opponent's creatures, also mitigating Decimator's Berserker bestowment and the +13 mana which more or less ensures your creatures get to deal damage for another round
Honourable Mentions
Skysovereign Consul Flagship which while also a 12/12 with a similar ability to Tyrant is not something you can expect to summon normally (ie. without Deploy) and so isn't ideal
Kozilek, the Great Distortion ditto being really too expensive, even though it's a 12/12 and draws you 6 cards
Desolation Twin while really solid, takes up two creature slots and so creates a creature congestion problem (but it's a good option if you have Deploy but do not have both Decimator and Olivia)

As we mentioned earlier there is still the issue where you draw 7 cards out of 40 and hence may never draw into the 4 copies of Deploy the Gatewatch, or that of Olivia or Decimator for that matter. So we need to load up with more creatures to help dish out damage in bad cases without fudging up Deploy's effectiveness. Enter Nahiri, Red/White planeswalker. Her first ability will reinforce your board by +4/+4 to all to help dish out 12 more damage a turn, or you can save up for the third ability which will reinforce one of your creatures 4 times, ideal for any of your big creatures.

The Red/White combination also gives you access to the following token summoning cards:
Oath of Gideon
Devil's Playground
Allied Reinforcements
Which helps double your 'creature count' to six without messing with Deploy's effectiveness.

Red/White also gives you access to Uncaged Fury to double the damage of one of your big creatures. Especially significant after a Deploy (36/36 Decimator with Double Strike?) which leaves you with 2 deck slots left.

Drop in Mirrorpool for the fabled Mirrorpool-free-Deploy combo to help ease your mana gain issues. You've got cheap spells (Devil's Playground, Uncaged Fury & Allied Reinforcements) to trigger Deploy.

Lastly I would think to slot in one removal for emergencies (like Undergrowth Champion, Drowner of Hope, Olivia, Gisela, etc.). But we're out of Spell slots. So probably something like Hixus, Prison Warden, Suppression Bonds, Authority of the Consuls or Silverstrike to help you with the situation. Alternatively you could also try Fevered Visions to give you a bit more draw and hopefully some bonus damage. Which gives you:

M-Decimator of the Provinces
M-Olivia, Mobilized for War
M-Metalwork Colossus
M-Mirrorpool
R-Authority of the Consuls
R-Oath of Gideon
R-Devil's Playground
U-Allied Reinforcements
M-Deploy the Gatewatch
C-Uncaged Fury

Unfortunately I don't have the cards to make that deck, though I'm sure some people from the top coalitions will. But I guess that's my secret (theorycraft) tech to best hit the win in 5 rounds objective for Red.

Alve

span_argoman wrote:

@Alve @Ohboy
While I agree with many of the points you two are making about the pros and cons of Olivia and Decimator, I think we would be missing the key card to hitting that 5 rounds objective in that discussion. Deploy the Gatewatch is the real card that makes a difference.

Would we? Both of us mentioned Deploy and successfully using Deploy decks for that node, I even briefly addressed a weakness of Nahiri Deploy (imo), which will most likely lead to me seeking alternatives before the next event. The reason why we decided to compare Decimator and Olivia isn't because either of us thinks that they're essential to beating those objectives and Deploy doesn't help, it's because they certainly can give an advantage and one is a powerful creature that could be bought while another is a powerful creature that could be gained i.a. from individual and coalition rewards. Comparing Olivia and Deploy would make little sense, since it's a bit like comparing apples and bananas - I guess, both are sweet?
Remember that we were addressing the question of some people (paying players or top 10 coalitions) having a certain advantage in that node (I'd argue that they have an advantage on all nodes, but perhaps here it's the most difficult to overcome).

When it comes to Deploy decks, they can be quite powerful, but also suffer from some disadvantages.

Firstly, they usually force you to reduce the number of creatures you pack, so if you a) don't draw Deploy soon enough (and instead draw 4 Mirrorpools and 4 Uncaged Furies, like I tend to), you usually have a very small chance to complete that objective - Deploy decks depend on you drawing Deploy early or quickly hard casting and buffing a powerful creature, in my experience both pretty luck-based. Zoo decks maximize your chances of drawing cards that you can immediately cast and use.

Second of all, they are very weak against removal-heavy decks or Hixus. Deploy thins your deck, so if you manage to Deploy and the opponent clears your side of the board, the chances of drawing more creatures anytime soon are relatively small. If you're lucky enough to Deploy a second time and get cleared, they dwindle even further. Soon enough you not only lose 1 ribbon for <5, but another two for <10. If you don't happen to remove Hixus quickly, one reliable strategy to 'beat' it is replacing your creatures. Of course you probably won't get that ribbon for <5 this way, but <10 is still totally doable with zoo decks. Quite unlikely with Deploy.

I've had some success with Koth zoo deck stuffed with heavy hitters, but it also wasn't consistent enough to satisfy me. On my next attempt I might test a zoo deck with mid-size creatures (Nahiri, Koth or Chandra 2). I've seen people consistently beat those objectives with zoo decks without Deploy and while Deploy can be helpful in some decks, it absolutely doesn't have to be the key (same goes for Olivia, Decimator, or any other card, for that matter )

I see a few issues with your theoretical Deploy deck, but that's another thing

watman

Ummm, guys, we're talking about the PvE game - how did you manage to weave Hixus in the calculations?
As visible above, I went with Nahiri turbo-zoo, counting on dropping three creatures in the first two turns and getting a +4/+4 pump - it is possible, and I really think it is safer bet than relying on drawing DtG...

EDIT:
And now I feel, like, 100% stupid... Had two tabs open, and I was sure we were talking about Walker of the wastes stage of the Oath of Gatewatch event

span_argoman

Alve wrote:

Would we? Both of us mentioned Deploy and successfully using Deploy decks for that node, I even briefly addressed a weakness of Nahiri Deploy (imo), which will most likely lead to me seeking alternatives before the next event. The reason why we decided to compare Decimator and Olivia isn't because either of us thinks that they're essential to beating those objectives and Deploy doesn't help, it's because they certainly can give an advantage and one is a powerful creature that could be bought while another is a powerful creature that could be gained i.a. from individual and coalition rewards. Comparing Olivia and Deploy would make little sense, since it's a bit like comparing apples and bananas - I guess, both are sweet?
Remember that we were addressing the question of some people (paying players or top 10 coalitions) having a certain advantage in that node (I'd argue that they have an advantage on all nodes, but perhaps here it's the most difficult to overcome).

Well going back to Ohboy's comment he mentioned that it's the top coalitions who have the advantage on hitting this objective due to better access to Deploy the Gatewatch and Decimator of the Provinces as opposed to paying players who have access to Olivia.

It devolved into an argument comparing Decimator and Olivia, conveniently laying Deploy aside. But that should be the focus. There are differences between Olivia and Decimator, minor when we're talking about the ones relevant to hitting the win in 5 rounds objective. But the most important card is Deploy the Gatewatch. By a huge margin. So the comparison between Olivia and Decimator is moot in view of that.

Players in top coalitions are the ones who have better access to Deploy the Gatewatch and hence they are the ones with the advantage for hitting this objective. Yeah paying players can get access to a card that's probably the jointly second most important card for hitting the objective but top coalitions have access to the top and the other joint-second which way overpowers just paying to have the other joint-second card.

So if we go further back to Shteev's original comment:

The <5 turns objective isn't *completely* random. Those people who have paid to win can certainly gain an advantage.

I contend that it is misleading at best and deceptive at worst. It's not exactly ignoring the elephant in the room but it's an insinuation that the game is Pay2Win when the game is more Play2Win. I disagree on that.

I'll reply to your comments on Deploy the Gatewatch in an edit or if I take too long, in a separate reply.


*edit*

Alve wrote:

When it comes to Deploy decks, they can be quite powerful, but also suffer from some disadvantages.

Firstly, they usually force you to reduce the number of creatures you pack, so if you a) don't draw Deploy soon enough (and instead draw 4 Mirrorpools and 4 Uncaged Furies, like I tend to), you usually have a very small chance to complete that objective - Deploy decks depend on you drawing Deploy early or quickly hard casting and buffing a powerful creature, in my experience both pretty luck-based. Zoo decks maximize your chances of drawing cards that you can immediately cast and use.

Second of all, they are very weak against removal-heavy decks or Hixus. Deploy thins your deck, so if you manage to Deploy and the opponent clears your side of the board, the chances of drawing more creatures anytime soon are relatively small. If you're lucky enough to Deploy a second time and get cleared, they dwindle even further. Soon enough you not only lose 1 ribbon for <5, but another two for <10. If you don't happen to remove Hixus quickly, one reliable strategy to 'beat' it is replacing your creatures. Of course you probably won't get that ribbon for <5 this way, but <10 is still totally doable with zoo decks. Quite unlikely with Deploy.

The deck I proposed has 6 creatures despite being a Deploy deck. 6 isn't a low creature count except relative to the original Nahiri Zoo with 8 creatures. And technically Deploy should count as a 'creature' since it summons creatures for you when cast. So you have 7 cards out of 10 which summons a creature to the board. Most other decks don't even run that many.

That's also plenty to do the replace a Hixus'd creature one at a time since you really only need 4 creatures at the minimum to do that. And also any deck will have an issue with Hixus if they don't remove it quickly. Even a zoo deck will have to contend with summoning sickness on the replacement creatures which will likely push it out of the 5 round limit. Hixus isn't a problem specific to a Deploy deck when you have 6 creatures in the deck already.

In the case that you cast Deploy, you remove Deploy and 3 creatures from the total cards left in your hand+deck. There will still 17 cards out of 36 which will summon creatures to the board in your hand+deck, 70% to 47% is a big drop yes but hardly a case where you don't have enough creatures to fill the battlefield.

Alve wrote:

I've had some success with Koth zoo deck stuffed with heavy hitters, but it also wasn't consistent enough to satisfy me. On my next attempt I might test a zoo deck with mid-size creatures (Nahiri, Koth or Chandra 2). I've seen people consistently beat those objectives with zoo decks without Deploy and while Deploy can be helpful in some decks, it absolutely doesn't have to be the key (same goes for Olivia, Decimator, or any other card, for that matter )

I see a few issues with your theoretical Deploy deck, but that's another thing

I run a Nahiri zoo deck to try for the 5 round objective. Personally I feel the success is pretty dependent on getting good cascades to be able to start using your abilities. It's nice to have mid-range creatures to deal damage with (and more importantly to affect with your abilities) but you need to deal an average of 17 to 24 damage a round to achieve a 5-round KO. And each round you don't meet that minimum raises the bar for subsequent rounds. So you really need her abilities to help boost the damage which at 9 or 15 loyalty is pretty dependent on cascading.

There was a back and forth between Ohboy and you about the consistency of your decks. While you can still achieve the objective without Deploy the Gatewatch, I'm fairly sure the consistency increases when you have the card.

I would love to hear the issues you see with the theoretical deck since I don't have the cards to test them myself. From what I see, a big issue is that there are a lot more high-cost cards in the deck than a Nahiri zoo deck so that would slow down the deck on average. Another issue is that running Olivia with a bunch of token summoners is going to eat through what precious little cards I have in hand. It might even eat through a charged Uncaged Fury which would be really annoying. But I'm sure one who has experience with the card will notice finer details.

buscemi

span_argoman wrote:

So if we go further back to Shteev's original comment:

The <5 turns objective isn't *completely* random. Those people who have paid to win can certainly gain an advantage.

I contend that it is misleading at best and deceptive at worst. It's not exactly ignoring the elephant in the room but it's an insinuation that the game is Pay2Win when the game is more Play2Win. I disagree on that.

You might well have a point there. I can only speak from my personal experience, which is this... I own Deploy, Pig, Kozilek, Skyship, but not Olivia. I didn't buy her at the time because I didn't want to be a pay to win player. Terribly hypocritical of me, since I'd already bought Shrine of the Forsaken Gods, but there you are. Shrine seemed like much lesser of an evil at the time because it was cheap and rare. We tell ourselves these little lies to get through the day.

I've been having a lot of trouble hitting the 5 turns objective, so I've been talking to a bunch of other players in top 10 coalitions about how I can improve my chances. And I noticed an oddly strong correlation between people who were doing better than me and people who owned Olivia.

Don't get me wrong, I've got a very strong collection, with all kinds of OP cards in it which I think should be nerfed. I'll name some of them if you like. But in this instance, it seems to me like I should have paid for some power if I wanted to perform better.

Is this game Play2Win? That kinda depends on your definition. I've played in a top 10 coalition for ages, and so I had a ton of chances to randomly get Deploy the Gatewatch, and I did, without spending money it. It wins a lot of games for me not because I'm a skilled player, but because I used to be a skilled player, and I've been rewarded for my efforts by being given a card that doesn't require me to be a skilled player any more. Is that Play2Win? Um... Yes, I think it is. I don't have Olivia tho. I've had loads more chances to win Olivia than most players, but I didn't get her, and so now I perform worse than many Pay2Win players in particular games with particular objectives. Most of them have had to pay AS WELL as play to get where they are today, but I only played, and my performance is worse than theirs as a result. They received a guaranteed OP card for their cash, and I foolishly thought that I could make up for the fact that I didn't have it with my ninja skills. I overestimated myself.

speakupaskanswer

I really think there are harder objectives than the four round-win. I managed it with Nahiri on the first try (no, I don't have Olivia) and I managed it with my never paid for-cards and my experience from my barely top 200 coalition. There is a lot of luck involved in this game (as there should be) and some skill.

On the other hand, I didn't even bother to finish Oath, Part 2 this time because the 10HP objective is much more difficult in my opinion. But it requires more skill than amazing cards, so there's that.

buscemi

speakupaskanswer wrote:

I really think there are harder objectives than the four round-win. I managed it with Nahiri on the first try (no, I don't have Olivia) and I managed it with my never paid for-cards and my experience from my barely top 200 coalition. There is a lot of luck involved in this game (as there should be) and some skill.

Well, you don't get a perfect score in events from doing an objective on your first try. You need to be more consistent than that.

span_argoman

buscemi wrote:

You might well have a point there. I can only speak from my personal experience, which is this... I own Deploy, Pig, Kozilek, Skyship, but not Olivia. I didn't buy her at the time because I didn't want to be a pay to win player. Terribly hypocritical of me, since I'd already bought Shrine of the Forsaken Gods, but there you are. Shrine seemed like much lesser of an evil at the time because it was cheap and rare. We tell ourselves these little lies to get through the day.

I've been having a lot of trouble hitting the 5 turns objective, so I've been talking to a bunch of other players in top 10 coalitions about how I can improve my chances. And I noticed an oddly strong correlation between people who were doing better than me and people who owned Olivia.

Don't get me wrong, I've got a very strong collection, with all kinds of OP cards in it which I think should be nerfed. I'll name some of them if you like. But in this instance, it seems to me like I should have paid for some power if I wanted to perform better.

Is this game Play2Win? That kinda depends on your definition. I've played in a top 10 coalition for ages, and so I had a ton of chances to randomly get Deploy the Gatewatch, and I did, without spending money it. It wins a lot of game for me not because I'm a skilled player, but because I used to be a skilled player, and I've been rewarded for my efforts by being given a card that doesn't require me to be a skilled player any more. Is that Play2Win? Um... Yes, I think it is. I don't have Olivia tho. I've had loads more chances to win Olivia than most players, but I didn't get her, and so now I perform worse than many Pay2Win players in particular games with particular objectives. Most of them have had to pay AS WELL as play to get where they are today, but I only played, and my performance is worse than theirs as a result. They received a guaranteed OP card for their cash, and I foolishly thought that I could make up for the fact that I didn't have it with my ninja skills. I overestimated myself.

I agree that Olivia is an OP card. Imbuing Haste to all subsequent creatures or tokens summoned is a great ability. Giving +3/+3 is also a strong ability. Giving Life Link to all those subsequent creatures? That's ridiculously OP. The thing I observe about Life Link is that in a game where what matters is getting your opponent's health to zero, Life Link does double duty since the creature damages your opponent while healing you. So it's doubly effective at creating a health differential compared to a standard creature.

For those reading who don't get why this is hugely significant, (spoiler tag is to improve the brevity of this post)

take two planeswalkers in a match where one player only has creatures with Life Link while the other player only has creatures without Life Link. For the second player to ensure that his health does not drop faster than the first player, he needs double the creature Power / damage. Take a situation where they're both down to 60 health, Life Link player's creatures deal 12 damage to the other player (HP totals: P1 72 / P2 48). To bring their health back to parity, the second player has to deal 72-48=24 damage, double.

Life Link player's reinforcements will also be doubly as effective as the other player's. Which was an acceptable effect in the days where Life Link creatures were more expensive and not particularly big, but not when you now have a creature able to imbue all your other creatures with Life Link, not only unlinking the Life Link ability from the mana-efficiency of a creature but allowing you to cram in all sorts of creature abilities while getting to enjoy Life Link.

I just don't agree that it's all that much better than Decimator at helping with the 5 rounds objective for reasons I already stated (eats too many of your precious cards), especially in a Deploy deck where Decimator's Haste trigger becomes comparable to that of Olivia's. Olivia is more consistent than Decimator in helping to hit the win in 10 rounds objective though, so that might be why people prefer it more. The post-summon effect of Olivia also means you can benefit from unexpected cascades (if you have enough cards in hand to), not so much for Decimator.

And when you say that Deploy allows you to no longer be a skilled player, I agree. I also agree on the same for Olivia. I don't have Deploy the Gatewatch, but I lucked into drawing Olivia even though I'm a Free2Play player. Considering the event tiebreaker is speed, I can more easily sacrifice making the right decision in Olivia-containing decks and still more or less win and hit the objectives. The absurd strength of the card just warps the game. And that's the definition of OP. Deploy the Gatewatch is right there with it as you will know better than me. 23 mana to fetch your next three creatures and put them on the battlefield. In that one card you gain a deck shrinking effect, 2 bonus draws and mana savings that in a properly built deck will be in the 40s-50s range. Compare that to:

V1.5 Patch Notes wrote:

Day’s Undoing

• Now costs 10 mana (up from 6).

o Day’s Undoing is a very strong Mythic card for Blue, and with its previous cost you would end up with 9 extra mana. At 10 cost, this is reduced to a more reasonable 5.

and at best I can only say they're inconsistent.

I would say ninja skills help to salvage matches against OP cards. But considering the level of consistency required to get the top rewards in Platinum and Gold, yeah I would say those alone aren't enough. We can be sore about OP cards, but I don't think it's the same as leveling an accusation that the game is Pay2Win game. Imo there are a comparable number of fair-game OP mythics (Deploy the Gatewatch, Nissa's Renewal, Drowner of Hope, Exert Influence) to OP paid-time-exclusive mythics (Olivia, Ulrich, Omnath back in its days, maybe Avacyn). Of course, when you're fighting for the top, every advantage counts especially an OP one. But in this case I think it's more of those particular cards which are the issue.

My unsolicited opinion on how to balance Olivia and Deploy

Olivia: Give Olivia Life Link, but she should no longer give Life Link to other creatures with her discard ability
Deploy: Fetch and summon two instead of three, and restrict to White creatures only (Woodland Bellower fetches only the next Green creature so code-wise this isn't anything new to the developers)
Deploy (alternative): If the restriction to White creatures only is considered unthematic, fetch and summon two creatures instead of three and exile the next two in your deck

Alve

I don't want to limit the freedom of speech, but if we keep debating who has it better, I'll split this topic so that people can continue to say 'I hate NoP' in this thread without stumbling upon this heavy, philosophical stuff

@span_argoman

I think you're misunderstanding Steve's point (any my later explanation of his point). He said that Olivia is an advantage that paying customers got. That is true. I've seen a lot of <5R decks from some of the best players in this game and a lot of them include Olivia. Period. A lot of them also include Decimator, that is also a fact. And Deploy. Sometimes all three of them. My personal opinion is that Olivia is stronger than piggie in that node for two reasons: creature damage isn't reduced by Berserker (Berserker is nice, but not if you're trying to hit fast and hard and there's a GR facing you) and your deck is more stable - Lifelink is so powerful (you explained it well), that I don't think of any ability that is more OP than giving permanent lifelink to all of your creatures (not to mention growing and hasting them).

The thing is, that in PvP you can't completely predict the decks you'll be facing. Will that Koth spam a lot of hasted creatures, or will he be a mean Koth, packing a bunch of destructive spells, that will keep clearing your board? Will that Gideon be a Hixus Gideon? A Vigilant tokens Gideon? A Gideon that will keep Smiting your creatures? Your deck can't >only< be fast. You'll obviously sacrifice most of control and defense, but in case things go south, you need something that will let you win and up to few hundreds of additional hp due to lifelinked fatties is a nice way to increase your chances :P

Sure, 1 ribbon for being fast is super nice. But getting 7 ribbons in one fight and 0 in the next, because your deck wasn't stable enough is still 3.5 ribbons on average That's also why I feel that while Nahiri Deploy can be super fast, if she fails, she fails horribly. In one case, against removal-heavy Sorin it took me 16 turns, 3 Deploys and one hard-cast Olivia to win the fight (#firstworldproblems). I almost lost, because after 3 Deploys, I had almost no creatures left - that's the beauty of Deploy decks.

Ultimately, and I'm saying it for the last time, we're all right. This game rewards skilled players (event rankings), skilled players with good teamwork (coalition rankings), dedicated players (QB, assuming there are no cheaters in your bracket), loyal players (you get to collect more mythics from different sets if you play long, so you have more flexibility - not to mention the legendary drop rates of early days) and paying players.

I belong to several of those groups - I'm a proud member of a top 10 coalition, I can afford to sometimes buy an exclusive mythic, if RNGeesus smiles at me, I manage to top individual leaderboards and now and then I top QB (very rarely though). I'm disadvantaged, because when compared to players from the US or Western Europe, the content in this game is quite expensive for me. I'm advantaged, because events usually begin and end at a very convenient time in my time zone. I'm disadvantaged, because in my time zone QB ends at 3 a.m., so even though I know I'm capable of doing well, I just don't feel like staying up until 3 a.m. I'm advantaged, because I don't have many real life obligations and so far my job is extremely flexible. We're all advantaged, because we use the forums and so can see other players' decks and ideas, contact the dev team and discover tools like octal9's mtgpq.info. Just like privilege irl, in-game advantage is a complicated thing. We can argue all day about whether it's better to use Olivia, Deploy or Decimator, but ultimately, being able to choose from all three is better than having just one or two.

There are possible solutions to that problem - in another thread I suggested introducing block-specific events and Standard format, which will prevent players who gained a momentary advantage (early drop rates, being in a top 10 coalition during SOI/EMN or buying Olivia) from dominating the game forever. Players who don't get that many powerful cards from newer sets will get to throw their Hixuses at us, players like me, who started late, but just in time to milk SOI/EMN will get to Deploy flying, lifelinked pigs and new players will be able to compete using cards from the current set, which they can obtain more easily. It won't happen anytime soon, I bet, but I hope to see it implemented at some point.

***

Back to the topic, I don't know what NoP should be renamed to, but may I suggest that it's something with a crude abbreviation, preferably referring to male reproductive organs or maybe human digestive system? That would make the teenage boy in me very happy.

Mainloop25

Alve wrote:

Back to the topic, I don't know what NoP should be renamed to, but may I suggest that it's something with a crude abbreviation, preferably referring to male reproductive organs or maybe human digestive system? That would make the teenage boy in me very happy.

Brutal Joust

DuskPaladin

Alve wrote:

Back to the topic, I don't know what NoP should be renamed to, but may I suggest that it's something with a crude abbreviation, preferably referring to male reproductive organs or maybe human digestive system? That would make the teenage boy in me very happy.

Nodes = Confluences
Knowledge = Power

New name: Confluences of Commanding Knowledge


Done, you're welcome!

babar3355

DuskPaladin wrote:

Alve wrote:

Back to the topic, I don't know what NoP should be renamed to, but may I suggest that it's something with a crude abbreviation, preferably referring to male reproductive organs or maybe human digestive system? That would make the teenage boy in me very happy.

Nodes = Confluences
Knowledge = Power

New name: Confluences of Commanding Knowledge


Done, you're welcome!

To be fair, I think Confluences of Commanding Knowledge (I have no idea how this abbreviation gets through the language filter // Alve) is one of the most fun events right now. I agree that the red node is a wheel of fortune and that blue node can be challenging, but that's what makes it fun. **** on the other hand.. Too easy.. yawn.

And I have a hard time believing anyone can consistently get the 5 turn objective more than about 2/3rd of the time. I have tested both Nahiri and Koth in quick battle and my decks are pretty stacked, and am around 60% within 5 turns. (yes I use Olivia Ohboy.. giving Skysoverign or Emrakul haste out of a deploy or just a cast is often the difference between turn 5 win and turn 6 win.) But there is a whole horde of RNG that goes into a turn 5 win. Can you cascade into Nahiri's ult? Can you draw uncaged in time? Do you get red matches with koth early? Is your opponent 82 life C1 or 119 life Ob Nix and stacks of removal?

My biggest problem with this challenge is I wonder how good I could do with a lvl 10 C2? Her mana gains are relatively huge at that level and seems like you could jam out enough hastey red critters to blaze down a 30-40 HP opponent pretty quickly. This is another pet peeve of mine.. I know for a fact that some people won Inventors Fair mythics using PW's of less than lvl 20. Total ****. Platinum events should be restricted to lvl 60 PWs, gold 50+, silver 40+.

bk1234

DuskPaladin wrote:

Nodes = Confluences
Knowledge = Power

New name: Confluences of Commanding Knowledge


Done, you're welcome!

Amazing