Panharmonicon trigger prevents fetch [Devs Aware]

octal9

1) Get Panharmonicon on the board.
2) Fill your hand with 6 cards.
3) Cast Oath of Nissa - when cast, hand reduces to 5 cards.
4) Oath of Nissa prompts for fetch - select a card and fetch it.
5) Panharmonicon thinks that Oath of Nissa has resolved and fetches a support to hand.
6) Oath of Nissa does not fetch selected card due to hand being full.

Gut says Panharmonicon shouldn't be triggering here. The Oath fetch should have higher priority since it's not fully resolved until it fetches & fills a card. (edit: Speculation - I suspect that it will fail with Talent of the Telepath as well)

If you want more another bug to go with your bugs:
Bonus step 7! Cast another Oath of Nissa immediately after the first one and note that your card is filled in the library!



Bonus step 8! Draw that card and note with dismay that it no longer has the mana that Oath of Nissa filled it with.

Delnai

This is how panharmonicon works with any card that fetches or draws, nothing special about Oath of Nissa. Its ability triggers before resolution of the spell. For what it's worth, this is consistent with how it would work in MtG.

octal9

This is how panharmonicon works with any card that fetches or draws, nothing special about Oath of Nissa

I put Oath of Nissa there because that is the card I discovered it with. (Similar to an earlier bug report I filed with GRB/Ulrich infinite loop)

Delnai wrote:

For what it's worth, this is consistent with how it would work in MtG.

I do not play paper. I hear hand size is not limited though, which is not true here - and the hand limit is where Panharmonicon's trigger is handling poorly. It is inconsistent in MtGPQ, which is what we are playing.

It does not match the functionality of other cards that trigger when external cards resolve. Take Mirrorpool & DtG as an example - the first creature fetched to the battlefield is reinforced. Why doesn't it make the next spell free? Because the creature it fetched resolved first. In fact, if that first creature fetched also spawns a token, it is the token that gets reinforced because that is the card that has resolved first.

Panharmonicon states it will fetch a card to your hand once you cast a card. One would assume it that functionality will match others, but instead but its trigger matches more closely to Insidious Will than it does with Mirrorpool.

Delnai

I didn't mean to say that MtG rules should apply here. It's just that I'm much newer to this game than MtG so I don't have the same intuition you have about rules of this game vs rules of that game. I didn't have a point of reference for how it should work in this game

I agree that the inconsistency between this scenario and how Mirrorpool interacts with Deploy the Gatewatch is confusing. I still can't guess which is the intended behavior and which is the bug. Are there other examples you can think of?

Also, now I'm curious what happens if I cast a card with a friendly Panharmonicon and an enemy Insidious Will out. I'd expect I should not fetch a card and have my cast countered. Or maybe it depends on the order the supports came out? Or maybe I never get the card.

octal9

Delnai wrote:

I agree that the inconsistency between this scenario and how Mirrorpool interacts with Deploy the Gatewatch is confusing. I still can't guess which is the intended behavior and which is the bug. Are there other examples you can think of?

Mirrorpool interactions are the one that will always hit off the top of my head; any time you cast a spell that summons creatures (Foundry of the Consuls, Devils' Playground, etc) it will reinforce the first token rather than making the next spell free.

Right now I just can't think of anything that interacts with card resolution order, sorry.

Delnai wrote:

Also, now I'm curious what happens if I cast a card with a friendly Panharmonicon and an enemy Insidious Will out. I'd expect I should not fetch a card and have my cast countered. Or maybe it depends on the order the supports came out? Or maybe I never get the card.

Not sure - Insidious Will is a curious case. I'd also expect your fetch to fail, but Panharmonicon's trigger seems high enough priority that I'd need to test to verify.

gulgoth

Delnai wrote:

This is how panharmonicon works with any card that fetches or draws, nothing special about Oath of Nissa. Its ability triggers before resolution of the spell. For what it's worth, this is consistent with how it would work in MtG.

That is NOT consistent with paper magic at all. Paper magic panharmonicon wouldn't trigger in the middle of another effect. It would be before or after.

Mirrorpool is screwed up in general. It behaves differently in different circumstances depending on the card/type. If you cast a creature that spawns a token creature when coming into play, it does not copy the first creature but rather let's the creature resolve and then copies the token creature, but if you cast a spell that summons tokens it does the opposite and copies the first token creature instead of waiting for it to resolve like it does with a creature.

MrMoustache

gulgoth wrote:

Delnai wrote:

This is how panharmonicon works with any card that fetches or draws, nothing special about Oath of Nissa. Its ability triggers before resolution of the spell. For what it's worth, this is consistent with how it would work in MtG.

That is NOT consistent with paper magic at all. Paper magic panharmonicon wouldn't trigger in the middle of another effect. It would be before or after.

Actually, it wouldn't trigger at all, as Panharmonicon (paper magic) doesn't have a triggered ability.

Delnai

MrMoustache wrote:

gulgoth wrote:

Delnai wrote:

This is how panharmonicon works with any card that fetches or draws, nothing special about Oath of Nissa. Its ability triggers before resolution of the spell. For what it's worth, this is consistent with how it would work in MtG.

That is NOT consistent with paper magic at all. Paper magic panharmonicon wouldn't trigger in the middle of another effect. It would be before or after.

Actually, it wouldn't trigger at all, as Panharmonicon (paper magic) doesn't have a triggered ability.

Let me clarify. I meant that if in paper Magic a permanent on the battlefield has a triggered ability with the trigger, "Whenever you cast a spell," that trigger will resolve before the spell that triggered it resolves. For example, if I cast Lightning Bolt on my own 3/3 creature with Prowess, it will survive. I think that if something similar to MtGPQ's Panharmonicon effect were to appear on a Magic card, its effect would be templated this way, so the card would go in your hand first.

[edit to add the words "with prowess"]

Brigby

Hi Everyone. Just wanted to let you know that there is an active bug report in the database for this, and the devs are looking into it.