Prevention before Correction
Punisher5784
Posts: 3,845 Chairperson of the Boards
I felt that 2016 was a great year for Marvel Puzzle Quest (MPQ). They implemented some really awesome features (e.g. Championing, SHIELD Rank/Clearance Levels/Intercepts) and updated some old mechanics (Easier to sell covers, eliminated 20 Iso rewards) which ultimately brought a player like me out of retirement after 7-months. Unfortunately 2016 will also be known for the year of bugs and constant fixes, which seem to be an ongoing issue as we enter into 2017.
I have not updated my game yet but I read the posts relating to the issues regarding Abilities associated with AP costs. Why is that every new patch brings new bugs and problems? Most of the time these aren't small problems but big game affecting problems. We used to be compensated for these types of issues but the compensation lately has been limited (e.g. 5* Hulk - which I never received despite owning and using a purple cover) or there's no compensation or apology at all (e.g. Galactus boss not unlocking). Even when we are compensated it is a token that more than 80% of the time results in a 2* or our compensation is even bugged (remember when we received a Hearts of Darkness token instead of the actual PVE token!). Nonetheless, the point of this point isn't to discuss the poor compensation but rather the lack of testing. How many posts do we have to make about how this game needs testers? The reds wrote a post back in November that "they're listening" but since that post I feel like they've listened less. A majority of these issues should not happen to begin with.. this is why we feel like testers.. this is why we do not feel our voices are heard.
I understand you're busy, short handed and you have a tough job with major deadlines. I cannot relate to a programmer or a coder, but I do understand the responsibility of how the quality of work can affect others. I work in Human Resources with a team of 3. We're responsible for nearly 10,000 employees.. we're overworked but despite our workload we cannot rush our assignments as any mistake can be very detrimental to our business. For instance, something as small as mistyping an employee's Social Security Number (SSN) can harm their benefits. If this oversight occurs, the employee with the incorrect SSN will appear in the benefit system as not having active medical coverage with the carrier when they try to go to the Doctor. Regardless how quickly and efficiently we fix the issue, the employee has still lost trust in our department's capability to oversee their benefits. As a result, the employee begins to question and argue with everything we do. Eventually the employee's morale deceases to the point that they quit and we have to recruit their replacement. This problem is not only time consuming and costly, but it can escalate to other employees.. all of our hard work is for nothing if our employee's do not believe we can handle the work.
Does this issue occur? Not anymore. How? Because we do not want have to deal with this issue ever again. We want our employee's to have faith in us doing the work right the first time. We set up processes to make sure everything we enter is correct. We carefully enter everything into the system, we check our coworker's work to ensure it is correct, and then we audit our records monthly. We believe in Prevention before Correction.. it is much easier in the long run to prevent an issue from occurring than correcting it. Maybe MPQ should follow the same motto.. imagine if the devs did not have to stop what they're doing to fix things but instead had everything tested fully, maybe when new things are implemented in the game they actually work as intended.
If you are truly listening then accept that your player base is right sometimes. The time is finally now to use your new 2017 budget and invest in some testers. You have a forum of skilled, highly intelligent, mature players that have already stated they would test you game for in-game currency. By continuing to not to address the lack of testing, you are risking the loss of your playerbase.
Sincerely,
Tom aka Punisher5784
I have not updated my game yet but I read the posts relating to the issues regarding Abilities associated with AP costs. Why is that every new patch brings new bugs and problems? Most of the time these aren't small problems but big game affecting problems. We used to be compensated for these types of issues but the compensation lately has been limited (e.g. 5* Hulk - which I never received despite owning and using a purple cover) or there's no compensation or apology at all (e.g. Galactus boss not unlocking). Even when we are compensated it is a token that more than 80% of the time results in a 2* or our compensation is even bugged (remember when we received a Hearts of Darkness token instead of the actual PVE token!). Nonetheless, the point of this point isn't to discuss the poor compensation but rather the lack of testing. How many posts do we have to make about how this game needs testers? The reds wrote a post back in November that "they're listening" but since that post I feel like they've listened less. A majority of these issues should not happen to begin with.. this is why we feel like testers.. this is why we do not feel our voices are heard.
I understand you're busy, short handed and you have a tough job with major deadlines. I cannot relate to a programmer or a coder, but I do understand the responsibility of how the quality of work can affect others. I work in Human Resources with a team of 3. We're responsible for nearly 10,000 employees.. we're overworked but despite our workload we cannot rush our assignments as any mistake can be very detrimental to our business. For instance, something as small as mistyping an employee's Social Security Number (SSN) can harm their benefits. If this oversight occurs, the employee with the incorrect SSN will appear in the benefit system as not having active medical coverage with the carrier when they try to go to the Doctor. Regardless how quickly and efficiently we fix the issue, the employee has still lost trust in our department's capability to oversee their benefits. As a result, the employee begins to question and argue with everything we do. Eventually the employee's morale deceases to the point that they quit and we have to recruit their replacement. This problem is not only time consuming and costly, but it can escalate to other employees.. all of our hard work is for nothing if our employee's do not believe we can handle the work.
Does this issue occur? Not anymore. How? Because we do not want have to deal with this issue ever again. We want our employee's to have faith in us doing the work right the first time. We set up processes to make sure everything we enter is correct. We carefully enter everything into the system, we check our coworker's work to ensure it is correct, and then we audit our records monthly. We believe in Prevention before Correction.. it is much easier in the long run to prevent an issue from occurring than correcting it. Maybe MPQ should follow the same motto.. imagine if the devs did not have to stop what they're doing to fix things but instead had everything tested fully, maybe when new things are implemented in the game they actually work as intended.
If you are truly listening then accept that your player base is right sometimes. The time is finally now to use your new 2017 budget and invest in some testers. You have a forum of skilled, highly intelligent, mature players that have already stated they would test you game for in-game currency. By continuing to not to address the lack of testing, you are risking the loss of your playerbase.
Sincerely,
Tom aka Punisher5784
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Comments
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Well written and well said. Here here brother.0
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Phumade wrote:Well written and well said. Here here brother.
Exactly. You managed to not only lay out a concise and well thought out critique but also managed to word it in such a way that you didn't come off as a whiner or complainer. I agree 100% with your post Punisher. I love this game but it definitely could use a lot more on the testing end which would in turn eliminate some of the worst of the complaining. Communication has improved markedly in the last couple of months, the game itself has improved dramatically but the one area that is seriously lacking is QA particularly with the boss events and patches.0 -
I'm a software developer and if I have to guess at what the problem is, I suspect it's the way the game is developed. Not all software are lucky enough to be developed and maintained by the same developers, or even the same team. I don't know too much about the iOS/Android platform but it's probably event driven with loads of smaller components and functions. What is probably happening, is the developer are given small isolated spec to work on eg. a single ability - do x etc. He/she develops and unit test this ability and submits the code. This code then gets merged in to the overall code base for the game. Now, typically the code base should go through some sort of regression test (towards the end of the release) to make sure the new code hasn't broken anything and catch any issue/bugs to be fixed before release. If lucky, there are automated testing that can be done. Otherwise, this is a manual effort.
Completely basely speculation, but the unit tests is probably what's being done here. New abilities are tested and implemented without the secondary tests on the overall code base (other aspect of the game). How else could these bugs creep up time and time again when it's not even remotely related to the new content?
Also bare in mind that having different developers means you inherently end up with different style of coding. It may not matter much in isolated tests but could have overall impacts that no one can foresee. Take a simple ability for example, cost x deals y damage. One developer may code the damage before the cost, another the other way around. To the player, this doesn't make a difference at all. But a lot of these inconsistency across the product can and will cause strange behaviours. Especially if the product is event driven like mpq. What's the solution you ask? Well I'leave that for the project managers and software architects to work out. In the end, I'm just a code monkey churning out another piece to the jigsaw puzzle.0 -
Pongie wrote:I'm a software developer and if I have to guess at what the problem is, I suspect it's the way the game is developed. Not all software are lucky enough to be developed and maintained by the same developers, or even the same team. I don't know too much about the iOS/Android platform but it's probably event driven with loads of smaller components and functions. What is probably happening, is the developer are given small isolated spec to work on eg. a single ability - do x etc. He/she develops and unit test this ability and submits the code. This code then gets merged in to the overall code base for the game. Now, typically the code base should go through some sort of regression test (towards the end of the release) to make sure the new code hasn't broken anything and catch any issue/bugs to be fixed before release. If lucky, there are automated testing that can be done. Otherwise, this is a manual effort.
Completely basely speculation, but the unit tests is probably what's being done here. New abilities are tested and implemented without the secondary tests on the overall code base (other aspect of the game). How else could these bugs creep up time and time again when it's not even remotely related to the new content?
Also bare in mind that having different developers means you inherently end up with different style of coding. It may not matter much in isolated tests but could have overall impacts that no one can foresee. Take a simple ability for example, cost x deals y damage. One developer may code the damage before the cost, another the other way around. To the player, this doesn't make a difference at all. But a lot of these inconsistency across the product can and will cause strange behaviours. Especially if the product is event driven like mpq. What's the solution you ask? Well I'leave that for the project managers and software architects to work out. In the end, I'm just a code monkey churning out another piece to the jigsaw puzzle.
Thanks for your insight on this as a software developer. The game has changed so much and I am sure a lot of the original staff is no longer with MPQ that it would make sense that a lot of the coding from when the game started is much different than what it is today. I remember when they rebalanced Loki, they stated he had the old "AP cost loss" per level on his black and they needed to modernize it. Maybe the best approach is to go back and modernize the older coding.. which is probably easier said than do but these issues keep snowballing which is very counterproductive for all parties.
At my job, we do not have a third party provider for the systems we use but instead we have internal developers that created them for us. The developers don't know what we actually use these systems for or what a majority of information is, they simply code what they're supposed to. Oftentimes we have to recommend certain changes and tweaks. Some things are an easy fix while others we're still waiting months for them to find a resolution. Nonetheless at the end of the day the system works because they listen to our feedback and work together to find ways to make the system beneficial to everyone. The workers behind MPQ need better leadership and organization before it continues to get worse..0 -
Pongie wrote:I'm a software developer and if I have to guess at what the problem is, I suspect it's the way the game is developed. Not all software are lucky enough to be developed and maintained by the same developers, or even the same team. I don't know too much about the iOS/Android platform but it's probably event driven with loads of smaller components and functions. What is probably happening, is the developer are given small isolated spec to work on eg. a single ability - do x etc. He/she develops and unit test this ability and submits the code. This code then gets merged in to the overall code base for the game. Now, typically the code base should go through some sort of regression test (towards the end of the release) to make sure the new code hasn't broken anything and catch any issue/bugs to be fixed before release. If lucky, there are automated testing that can be done. Otherwise, this is a manual effort.
Completely basely speculation, but the unit tests is probably what's being done here. New abilities are tested and implemented without the secondary tests on the overall code base (other aspect of the game). How else could these bugs creep up time and time again when it's not even remotely related to the new content?
Also bare in mind that having different developers means you inherently end up with different style of coding. It may not matter much in isolated tests but could have overall impacts that no one can foresee. Take a simple ability for example, cost x deals y damage. One developer may code the damage before the cost, another the other way around. To the player, this doesn't make a difference at all. But a lot of these inconsistency across the product can and will cause strange behaviours. Especially if the product is event driven like mpq. What's the solution you ask? Well I'leave that for the project managers and software architects to work out. In the end, I'm just a code monkey churning out another piece to the jigsaw puzzle.
I too develop software, albeit not for games. I have, however, worked on gaming projects in the past. For my type of software, I am constantly working with projects that predate my professional career... where the software was written by someone who no longer works here. That means that someone who writes in a completely different style than me, and can not be questioned for advice, worked on this project. Yet somehow, I must now troubleshoot and make changes to keep customers happy.
I have definitely run into scenarios where I fix problem X, merge this new sub function into the parent code, and problem X is now fixed, but I managed to make a new problem Y somewhere else on the project. In all honesty, I have done this multiple times. However, I also work very diligently to get to the bottom of it and fix the problem as quickly as possible. I have driven hours in a car on the day before a federal holiday, just to get back to the customer's facility and fix this mistake. THAT is the difference, I believe. I, as a professional with integrity, can not allow my customer to be down for an extended amount of time, and when the mistake was mine... I feel personally obligated to fix it before I get to go on my "holiday break", and I do this fixing for free because I was responsible.
These developers do not have such integrity or professional obligations. They do not take responsibility. Their reaction is "yea yea yea, calm down. We will get to it eventually". On top of it, they do not compensate for their mistakes. If they are not willing to fix the problem immediately, and they don't take any sort of blame, the least they could do is make us feel like they care. They are willing to put out a faulty product, or a product that needs improving, and don't feel like they should be doing anything about it. They claim to be listening, but they never said they would care0 -
re: compensation - I've played several other games that have compensated for way less than what this game does. numerous times I've logged into a game to find a message that I've been given some in-game currency for some minor bug or issue that affected gameplay. I can also tell you that I've rarely been affected by whatever bugs those were, and I actually felt impressed by that bulk generosity.
of course, demi's prerogative is their own, but if they won't at least provide a quality product, I don't understand why they won't foster some amount of goodwill, no matter how small, in the form of compensation (along with communication/explanation). if a patch is released that resulted in a bug (basically every two weeks), a small gesture of acknowledgement would go a very long way. given the starved economy of this game, it would be very appreciated.
In the event this is read by anyone of import at demi/d3, I will also add that compensation must be somewhat meaningful. no one would expect legendary tokens or CP (unless that game was severely broken to the point of unplayable), but for most issues, I think something more than an event token would be good. maybe even a package of several smaller currencies that would appeal to a broad base of players, something like: 1 event or elite token + 200 HP + 1,000 ISO.
I get why so many people have called the devs stingy. it's because so many other developers get it right when it comes to customer relations, and the devs of this game relatively speaking just don't.
most of this is a moot point, however, if the game ran smoothly. above all else, if the product was right, compensation/apologies/communication wouldn't be nearly as important.0 -
How about they give every existing player two free roster slots and call it even?0
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"Build it twice".
I'm in the biotech industry. Any product we intend to introduce to the catalogue has to have two production lots behaving within a set of parameters, AFTER the R&D process, once the SOP is established.
It's a similar scenario. You need to check the product before providing it to a customer. The rub is - this is technically a free game. They don't demand a fee for the product. Payment is optional. A lot of people spend a lot of money on it, but it's entirely optional. How much leeway does that buy in the market? Enough that they don't necessarily have to put an update through phase 3 clinical trials before release. Their main worry is that people will get frustrated and stop playing/paying.0 -
Punisher5784 wrote:... Something needs to happen before you lose your (paying) players...
Enjoyed your post. Obviously what everyone is thinking and thanks for posting. However, this last line is an empty threat. Spenders gonna spend.0 -
Crnch73 wrote:I too develop software, albeit not for games. I have, however, worked on gaming projects in the past. For my type of software, I am constantly working with projects that predate my professional career... where the software was written by someone who no longer works here. That means that someone who writes in a completely different style than me, and can not be questioned for advice, worked on this project. Yet somehow, I must now troubleshoot and make changes to keep customers happy.
I have definitely run into scenarios where I fix problem X, merge this new sub function into the parent code, and problem X is now fixed, but I managed to make a new problem Y somewhere else on the project. In all honesty, I have done this multiple times. However, I also work very diligently to get to the bottom of it and fix the problem as quickly as possible. I have driven hours in a car on the day before a federal holiday, just to get back to the customer's facility and fix this mistake. THAT is the difference, I believe. I, as a professional with integrity, can not allow my customer to be down for an extended amount of time, and when the mistake was mine... I feel personally obligated to fix it before I get to go on my "holiday break", and I do this fixing for free because I was responsible.
These developers do not have such integrity or professional obligations. They do not take responsibility. Their reaction is "yea yea yea, calm down. We will get to it eventually". On top of it, they do not compensate for their mistakes. If they are not willing to fix the problem immediately, and they don't take any sort of blame, the least they could do is make us feel like they care. They are willing to put out a faulty product, or a product that needs improving, and don't feel like they should be doing anything about it. They claim to be listening, but they never said they would care
I don't think it is fair to speculate on what their personal sense of integrity is. I work in software development too, and often when you've got a product that's been built upon and running for years, and had multiple changes of developers, well, the code base gets fragile.
Could you halt all new development and do nothing but work on setting up an exhaustive set of unit tests and automated testing to squash as many bugs as possible with each release? Sure, but that might take all hands on deck for weeks (or more!), and let's be honest that is not realistic. Who knows what the mandated schedule is, whether it be from within the company to release new characters, or from Marvel to release tie-in events with each movie.
That said, I do agree that they should be more customer-friendly in regards to compensation, a single token with poor odds isn't going to move the needle much. But, let's not go jumping to conclusions as to what people are thinking of or their personal professional code, etc, quite frankly many times it is out of their hands.0 -
cyineedsn wrote:
I don't think it is fair to speculate on what their personal sense of integrity is. I work in software development too, and often when you've got a product that's been built upon and running for years, and had multiple changes of developers, well, the code base gets fragile.
Could you halt all new development and do nothing but work on setting up an exhaustive set of unit tests and automated testing to squash as many bugs as possible with each release? Sure, but that might take all hands on deck for weeks (or more!), and let's be honest that is not realistic. Who knows what the mandated schedule is, whether it be from within the company to release new characters, or from Marvel to release tie-in events with each movie.
That said, I do agree that they should be more customer-friendly in regards to compensation, a single token with poor odds isn't going to move the needle much. But, let's not go jumping to conclusions as to what people are thinking of or their personal professional code, etc, quite frankly many times it is out of their hands.
I respectfully (and please let me emphasize that word, because I know the forums can sometimes be devoid of respect) disagree with you. As I mentioned in my post, I do this sort of integrating and debugging often. And I am not trying to brag, but some of my projects are for very large companies who rely on my software to pump out products (sometimes life-saving products) at millions of units and dollars in profit per day. That means that my software is under more scrutiny than their game is, because though we have a very large player-base here, no one is depending on MPQ to save their life in an open-heart surgery. If I hold myself to a specific standard, I know that is solely on my head, and I can not expect people to always meet that same standard. I also know that other people hold themselves to an even higher standard than I do, and thus feel the same way towards me as I do towards the developers. It is not world changing to have a game coder to not care as much as I do. However, if you operate in a manner that continually shows you are somewhat greedy and not entirely in-tune with your customers, I can not (even for one second) feel they maintain a similar sense of integrity. Maybe I am too scrutinous, and so be it... but I firmly stand in question of their integrity until proven otherwise. By all means, please go on holiday break. But upon returning, if things have gone south while you were away, I would expect someone with integrity to own up to any mistakes and go about restoring trust. They never do take ownership of the **** that goes on, and they tell all players "suck it up, buttercup."
Maybe this "big change" they are promising will make me take a step back and say "Wow... they do indeed care about the players", in which case I will eat my words gladly. Until then? Actions speak louder than words.0 -
While I applaud the notion in the OP, I would bet every dime I have that it falls on deaf ears. Forums are .01% of the playerbase. Most people are just like "LOL HAY ITZ WOLVAREEN" and don't really care about any of the bugs because they play a couple matches a day.
As for the "big change," is it me or do they frequently promise some vague "big change" that will "improve things" that is never specified, and as such may or may not ever actually arrive? I guess championing was major, but I don't know what else would even qualify in the last 500-something days I've been playing.0 -
To anyone listening from D3:
Literally, I QA test for my job. I write scripts so other people can QA test as well. Not for a game company, but for a company that does electronic medical records, billing/scheduling/ electronic prescriptions, etc. Basically a system where if it's not tested well then patient lives could at risk.
For a fair amount of in-game compensation I would gladly apply the same rigor to testing the game and working with your devs to create functional testing scripts that can be repeated across all characters, events and scenarios.
You know where to find me - I am happy to help you and my fellow players!0 -
It's not like they can't afford QA Testers, what with all the whales & super-whales they have. Or is the lowest pay there $100+ per hour?
Seriously, there are many of us here on the forums who would gladly QA test for them IF WE WERE GIVEN ADEQUATE COMPENSATION, rather than being told it's a new patch.0 -
MPQ is only game I play that I can think of where it doesn't feel the devs are grateful for and appreciate their playerbase, they give an impression that we should be grateful for being able to play.0
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They know they have 2 incredible properties and imo are abusing thenTwysta wrote:MPQ is only game I play that I can think of where it doesn't feel the devs are grateful for and appreciate their playerbase, they give an impression that we should be grateful for being able to play.0 -
Well said, Punisher. It takes a lot of legwork to continue at the pace this game has gone. It is time they implemented a test system for players to see beforehand and help be a part of. In-game compensation is the cheapest route they can take. If they look it as an "we aren't making money giving our product away" outlook, they are looking at it the wrong way.
I bartend. Repeat clientele is the best type of clientele. My job is to build a base where people come in and feel like a regular. Either I use my Manager comp tab or even pay out of pocket to get a drink for a regular every now and again. They feel appreciated and will want to come back.
A lot of hotel chains have a simple philosophy: Happy Employees = Happy Customers = Happy Owners. It is time to turn some customers into employees/customers by letting them help you. Marvel will be happy with a positive reviewed and recommended game. If all it costs are some CP, HP and ISO, that is cheaper than paying multiple salaries to testers. The player base is starting to become unhappy with these deficiencies and it starts at the top. Don't let it avalanche to an unhappy player base. Let us help. We like this game. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.0 -
Well said OP.
But the backlash from what the debacle of the "Boss Rush" event brought out this all out, everyone realized that their was little QC, and no QA on MPQ, unfortunately. They even confirmed it post-event (in a way).
It's been what, ~3 months since then, if they were to implement anything from all of our comments, hopefully they would have made a decision by now....
But alas, nothing public about changing the "development" process, and releases.0 -
I would really like some feedback from a red name regarding anything from this post. Punisher put a lot of time into the message, and it seemed respectful and well thought out... while still expressing a major concern of a good chunk of the player base. Mostly, bugs happening, QoL seeming to be going in the wrong direction0
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Crnch73 wrote:I would really like some feedback from a red name regarding anything from this post. Punisher put a lot of time into the message, and it seemed respectful and well thought out... while still expressing a major concern of a good chunk of the player base. Mostly, bugs happening, QoL seeming to be going in the wrong direction
The devs very rarely directly respond to a player's post no matter how many players on here agree (e.g. Boss Rush). I'm just hoping this post will be brought up during one of their community meetings and they eventually address the overall issue of bugs and lack of testing.
Anyways thank you for your feedback and everyone else on here. Sometimes I believe when we all band together we truly make a difference on the improvements they make in this game even if it doesn't always feel that way.0
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