Clues and Sigil of the Empty Throne.

Reaganstorme
Reaganstorme Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
edited December 2016 in MtGPQ General Discussion
As of now / next update, Clues will be fully treated as Supports:
Hibernum_JC wrote:
Clues also are now fully treated as tokens so they cannot return to your hand or the board using Starfield of Nyx, Seasons Past, etc.

I'm interested to know whether they now do the other things we expect Clue Supports to do. Namely, triggering Sigil of the Empty Throne, or other cards similarly not supported: Jessian Thief, Thing in the Ice, Blessed Spirits. Many other cards were already treating Clues as Supports; eg Helm of the Gods, so we should see some improved Clue deck ideas.

Alas, if only I had Tamiyo's Journal to test.

Can anyone help me here? If so, thanks in advance!

EDIT - Clues not designed to work this way. See JC's reply below.

Comments

  • Hibernum_JC
    Hibernum_JC Posts: 318 Mover and Shaker
    Sigil of the Empty Throne is not meant to work with summoning support tokens.

    Here's the logic - the card says "When you cast a Support". The wording is very specific in this case: "casting" means "filling up with mana and playing from the hand". Clues do not get "cast", they get summoned from other sources, so they do not trigger Sigil of the Empty Throne. The same is true for Blessed Spirits and Jhessian Thief.

    I hope this clear things up!
  • Reaganstorme
    Reaganstorme Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    Thanks JC. That is exactly the specific information and explanation we've been wondering about.

    Appreciate the reply.
  • Nitymp
    Nitymp Posts: 320 Mover and Shaker
    So clues will now no longer count towards secondary objectives about casting support then? What about from PW abilities?
  • Reaganstorme
    Reaganstorme Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    Nitymp wrote:
    So clues will now no longer count towards secondary objectives about casting support then? What about from PW abilities?

    Hopefully such objectives are reworded to align with the tighter definitions JC has previously mentioned regarding standardised ability wordings.

    Good catch though.
  • Hibernum_JC
    Hibernum_JC Posts: 318 Mover and Shaker
    As far as objectives are concerned, this is a separate system. I will talk with the team to make sure we fix this in the future so that it is clear.
  • GrizzoMtGPQ
    GrizzoMtGPQ Posts: 776 Critical Contributor
    @JC Sigil is summoning an Angel when Sigil itself comes out or is reinforced. That's incorrect.
  • Hibernum_JC
    Hibernum_JC Posts: 318 Mover and Shaker
    GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:
    @JC Sigil is summoning an Angel when Sigil itself comes out or is reinforced. That's incorrect.

    Yeah, this is due to a change on how we are handling that specific trigger. We'll fix that shortly.
  • nerdstrap
    nerdstrap Posts: 180 Tile Toppler
    GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:
    @JC Sigil is summoning an Angel when Sigil itself comes out or is reinforced. That's incorrect.

    But it now matches every other ETB effect
  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:
    @JC Sigil is summoning an Angel when Sigil itself comes out or is reinforced. That's incorrect.

    Yeah, this is due to a change on how we are handling that specific trigger. We'll fix that shortly.

    Actually Sigil is slightly underpowered without that effect. I encountered it this event and was pleasantly surprised. Thought it was ninja balanced.
  • Hibernum_JC
    Hibernum_JC Posts: 318 Mover and Shaker
    Ohboy wrote:
    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:
    @JC Sigil is summoning an Angel when Sigil itself comes out or is reinforced. That's incorrect.

    Yeah, this is due to a change on how we are handling that specific trigger. We'll fix that shortly.

    Actually Sigil is slightly underpowered without that effect. I encountered it this event and was pleasantly surprised. Thought it was ninja balanced.

    There's actually a chance I'll modify the card so it works as-is (the buggy version!) since it does feel a bit underpowered.
    nerdstrap wrote:
    GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:
    @JC Sigil is summoning an Angel when Sigil itself comes out or is reinforced. That's incorrect.

    But it now matches every other ETB effect

    It's not an "ETB" effect, it's an "On Cast" effect. Huge difference there.
  • nexus13
    nexus13 Posts: 191 Tile Toppler
    [quote="Hibernum_JC"
    Here's the logic - the card says "When you cast a Support". The wording is very specific in this case: "casting" means "filling up with mana and playing from the hand". Clues do not get "cast", they get summoned from other sources, so they do not trigger Sigil of the Empty Throne. The same is true for Blessed Spirits and Jhessian Thief.[/quote]


    Historically this game has not been very good about paying attention to specific wording, this has been frustrating for people who played paper magic and would read a card and expect certain things to happen based on the card text. I take this as a good sign and that there is an effort to make things more consistent and logical.

    Are there plans to clear up other things that work in unusual ways, for example rolling thunder with awaken does 6 damage in two pieces and creature abilities trigger and take effect in between the two damage and four damage portions of the spell. Effects happening in the middle of a spell resolving are weird. Also creature deaths from the same effect should be simultaneous and not sequential, it creates cases where creatures that were killed don't die based on which order they were stacked in.
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    Going to test it again but clues(and servos) do still work with supports that require you to cast supports for an effect

    This includes:
    - blightcaster
    - oath of Chandra and Jace
    - ulvenwald mysteries

    Will confirm shortly

    Edit: probably it happened post recent clue fix but clues don't seem to trigger "on support cast" effects anymore.
    However servos DO trigger those effects.
  • Reaganstorme
    Reaganstorme Posts: 334 Mover and Shaker
    Morphis wrote:
    Going to test it again but clues(and servos) do still work with supports that require you to cast supports for an effect

    This includes:
    - blightcaster
    - oath of Chandra and Jace
    - ulvenwald mysteries

    Will confirm shortly

    Edit: probably it happened post recent clue fix but clues don't seem to trigger "on support cast" effects anymore.
    However servos DO trigger those effects.

    From this I take it that Servos WILL trigger Sigil?
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    Reaganstorme wrote:
    Morphis wrote:
    Going to test it again but clues(and servos) do still work with supports that require you to cast supports for an effect

    This includes:
    - blightcaster
    - oath of Chandra and Jace
    - ulvenwald mysteries

    Will confirm shortly

    Edit: probably it happened post recent clue fix but clues don't seem to trigger "on support cast" effects anymore.
    However servos DO trigger those effects.

    From this I take it that Servos WILL trigger Sigil?
    To be honest I did not test it, i assumed like clues(even pre-fix) it would not.
    Also I was wrong about ulvenwald. It should work cause it does not require support being cast.
    So that it's working as intended.

    Can also confirm blightcaster working with clues(and servos).

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