4* DDQ discussion.

Uninspired

I wonder how much the devs are holding back on a 4* DDQ, not because it would be hard to implement, but because everyone expects it to contain a 4* cover and they can't/won't meet that expectation. Personally, I'd be happy with something as simple as an extra taco token, 2000iso, or just 1 or 2 cp. For the higher rosters, earning that daily would have a meaningful impact (meaningful does not mean solving all of MPQ's woes), and for lower rosters the awards are worth trying for but no big deal to miss out on.

tizian2015

Do we have the same discussion before introducing 3*DDQ ? It´s really annoying, that players argue AGAINST more covers for a completely deluted pool. New players have no chance to get anywhere in this game without spending thousands. No new players means the end, not now, but in the future. If you whales want to be all alone, fine, but dont complain about battling all the same people everytime. Divide et impera -> think about it.

I started 1st septembre 2015, dropped 120 bucks in the first three months for hp for slots, I needed a year to champ all 3*s, to cover them all with 13 a few months less. But there are PLENTY more dropchances for 3*s. This game -argued by fanboys- is about "choices", I have NO choice, if RNG gives me 13 covers for Mr Fantastic and not for teenjean. I only have a choice if I have 13 covers for both of them (and whoever else).

And to be fair, to make a calculation a player is getting complete pve-progression, all cp´s from nodes AND 900 points pvp-progression, that is far about reality for most players. If I´m in 4* transition I cannot reach 900 points, I can only reach it, if I finished it (or if RNG gives me ONLY top-4*s and NOTHING ELSE!).

Progression is so slow, you really think, players are in the mood to wait 3 years to champ some good 4*s and see 6*s coming? Why do you think, they should do this? Some masochistic attitude?

thanos8587

there were people who complained about ddq giving a daily 3 star. they said it made things too easy compared to how they had to work to get theirs. some said it would kill the game.

now here we are at more 4 stars in the game than when ddq started giving a daily 3 star. one a day maybe a bit much but an increase is certainly warranted.

but be careful what you wish for. more covers is great, but iso is the bottleneck and even if you start getting those covers your iso will evaporate almost immediately, giving you another actually much bigger issue.

i say this as a 2 year plus player with 21 champed 4s for reference.

GurlBYE

Calnexin wrote:

I think the dearth of 4* covers is being adequately addressed by CL. Making 4* daily would accelerate the game, requiring the dev team to create either more 4* or higher tiers. If everyone has the same roster... that's the end game. It's when you stop playing.

No it is NOT.

1 4 cover every 3-4 day event isn't sufficient when there are 40 and someone has 1 to two covers of them.

even at 1 4 star a day, it would take someone with every 4 star now, roughly 500 ddq's to cover the 4's.
And thats if they have all 40 rostered. and the colors perfectly aligned with what they needed.

Dormammu

GurlBYE wrote:

Calnexin wrote:

I think the dearth of 4* covers is being adequately addressed by CL. Making 4* daily would accelerate the game, requiring the dev team to create either more 4* or higher tiers. If everyone has the same roster... that's the end game. It's when you stop playing.

No it is NOT.

1 4 cover every 3-4 day event isn't sufficient when there are 40 and someone has 1 to two covers of them.

even at 1 4 star a day, it would take someone with every 4 star now, roughly 1,000 ddq's to cover the 4's.
And thats if they have all 40 rostered. and the colors perfectly aligned with what they needed.

That's assuming DDQ is the only source of 4* covers, which it obviously isn't.

GurlBYE

san-mpq wrote:

ZeiramMR wrote:

san-mpq wrote:

...
5 4* covers from progression rewards
80 CP from event progression rewards (25+25+10+10+10)
14 CP from mission rewards
1 4*/5* cover equivalent from Daily Rewards (either an outright cover, Legendary token, or 25 CP)
Let's say 2-3 covers via lucky token pulls and cumulative Champion rewards of CP or covers
1 LT from DDQ every 5 days assuming the person can beat the node

That adds up to 13-15 covers for 4*s/5*s in a week (by all means people, correct my math if you see anything glaring). Your change would add another 5.6 LTs a week, which is about a 40% increase.

This is an overestimation with zeal. Please remember, ZeiramMR, that I was in a top 50 alliance, and I would say doing fairly well overall, playing for PVE and PVP, and I certainly do not recall this calculation. If I got 6-8 4* covers during a week, I'd be very happy. If 3-4 of those covers were useful (rather than duplicates, or covers for a full-covered, under-leveled 4*), that would be even better.

You are looking at a pool of 40ish 4*s, at 13 covers a piece, or roughly 520 covers. At 4 NEW covers a week, it would take you 130 weeks to JUST MAX all the four stars. This does not include champion levels. Even at your overestimated 15 covers a week, it would take 34 weeks, or 8 months to simply get covers to the max for the 40, so no, that's not really very fast. In 8 months, I've beaten most every other game out on the market, perhaps several. I know they mean for there not to be any end, but 5*s are vastly more difficult to achieve. It would be daunting as a new player to have to collect all these covers from scratch.

Pretty much my sentiment to the anti-ideas.

And i can assure you the 4 star tier is not over.

thanos8587

Dormammu wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

Calnexin wrote:

I think the dearth of 4* covers is being adequately addressed by CL. Making 4* daily would accelerate the game, requiring the dev team to create either more 4* or higher tiers. If everyone has the same roster... that's the end game. It's when you stop playing.

No it is NOT.

1 4 cover every 3-4 day event isn't sufficient when there are 40 and someone has 1 to two covers of them.

even at 1 4 star a day, it would take someone with every 4 star now, roughly 1,000 ddq's to cover the 4's.
And thats if they have all 40 rostered. and the colors perfectly aligned with what they needed.

That's assuming DDQ is the only source of 4* covers, which it obviously isn't.

and it wasnt for 3 stars either when they started 3 star ddq.

Dormammu

thanos8587 wrote:

and it wasnt for 3 stars either when they started 3 star ddq.

Maybe when there's a 6* rarity we'll have a daily 4* in DDQ.

GurlBYE

Dormammu wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

Calnexin wrote:

I think the dearth of 4* covers is being adequately addressed by CL. Making 4* daily would accelerate the game, requiring the dev team to create either more 4* or higher tiers. If everyone has the same roster... that's the end game. It's when you stop playing.

No it is NOT.

1 4 cover every 3-4 day event isn't sufficient when there are 40 and someone has 1 to two covers of them.

even at 1 4 star a day, it would take someone with every 4 star now, roughly 1,000 ddq's to cover the 4's.
And thats if they have all 40 rostered. and the colors perfectly aligned with what they needed.

That's assuming DDQ is the only source of 4* covers, which it obviously isn't.

Math was off anyhow but to compensate

546.

I'd estimate you'd get 100 (to skew unrealistically) 240 useful 4 covers during tip top optimal play for the year.

if all of those apply, thats a year of DDQ.

If there are duplicates. more.
If you don't have the character for that cycle more
if you can't beat it more

So a year if RNG blesses you with 5 useful 4 covers a week as a transitioning 3 to 4 player.

and the 546 is based on each and every cover being the one you need and never missing a day.

And by that time frame the 5 star tier will have been fleshed into it's 20-30 stage and 4's become the new 2.5's due to 5's strength, if we started today.

DFiPL

GURLbye wrote:

and the 546 is based on each and every cover being the one you need and never missing a day.

You factor in having 1 cover of each already?

Calnexin

san-mpq wrote:

Calnexin wrote:

I think it would greatly accelerate cover acquisition. I don't have any numbers to back me up, so here's a lot of salt <saltysaltysalty>, but as I recall, DDQ was the primary way I built my 3* roster. I got covers here and there from other places, but that guaranteed cover allowed me to eventually champ all of them (except Strange).

You defeat yourself with this particular argument. I presented numbers. Your logic is akin to saying "well I really don't know how many car crashes occur a year, but I'll definitively say it's 200"...

Your numbers reflect optimal play, requiring not only participation but placement in all events and modes. DDQ, on the other hand, is a relatively easy get - practically guaranteed with a half hour's worth of effort. I doubt most people are making those 14-15 covers right now, so the percentage gain from a daily crash would be much more significant (for the average player).

san-mpq wrote:

Calnexin wrote:

The rarity reflects their power...

Actually, this has been disproved many a time. Devs have commented on it. Rarity is JUST rarity.

Otherwise, I'm not sure we could explain how Storm (2*), a near goddess with the ability to control the weather, is outclassed by a mere mortal, the likes of Punisher (i.e. 4*). Your theory does not hold here.

I'm not talking about the fiction. I'm talking about gameplay. My 4* champs wipe the floor with 3* teams, and they are summarily handed their butts by better 4* or well-leveled 5*.

Eichen

Only if it requires champed 3* characters. Then it would help 4* transition. The way it works now only people already started on the 4* path can do the 4* DDQ

GurlBYE

DFiPL wrote:

GURLbye wrote:

and the 546 is based on each and every cover being the one you need and never missing a day.

You factor in having 1 cover of each already?

That number is simply all the covers.

my actual number isn't posted, but stated just below that.

365, the number of days in a year if all goes swell and you get useful random covers.

acescracked

san-mpq wrote:

.. This needs to happen, ASAP. ...
Cheers

San

I love this statement!! Emergency patch. D3 cancel the xmas party 4* ddq ASAP.

I think i have 15 some 4*s at 13 covers all at lvl 150. Just got moonknight from 10 to 13 covers last night playing venom bomb a total of just under 3 hours. Another 4* that will languish at 13 covers and underleveled.

veny

How i see 4* DDQ:

Every day there will be a new node with 4* cover. When defeated, it will provide random color of that cover. It will also give you 15 000 points.
For 30 000 points (all nodes done) you will get 5CP.

Fair enough - people will get more 4* covers (without decreasing rarity of 5*s), 4* DDQ will be on daily basis, and you will get your 1 LT per 5 days. Plus, 4*s will rotate more frequently (current rotation rate 200+ days is kinda... unacceptable).

Matt Murdock

Those who posted that Zeiram's calculations were off:

You are completely missing the point. The point was that a 4* cover every day would drastically increase the amount of covers being given out. What did he say, 13 covers a week? And that adding a daily 4* would increase that by 40%? Okay, so you get far less than that. Maybe 5 covers a week. Then having a daily 4* would more than *double* your 4* intake! What you have said only proves his point even more - that such a change would drastically increase the amount of covers being given out.

Now, why does this matter? Well, D3/demi are running a business here. They have an economy that they have to maintain. They have to keep people engaged and playing and spending. If they give out rewards too quickly, people will lose interest. Think about this: If you could be given a sandboxed roster with every character in the game at level 550, would the game be fun anymore? Would you want to play? No - there would be no further progress to make. The game would be over. If that's what you play games for, I imagine that you put in a cheat code in other games to take you straight to the end, right? "okay cool, beat the game. now on to the next one." If you don't do that, then why is this game any different? Just sit back and enjoy the journey. This game is meant to be played over a very long period of time. If you don't like it, perhaps this isn't the game for you.

If they gave out 4* covers every day, with the combination of PvP and PvE, I know many people would have so many 4* max covered in a short period of time. Heck, I've been playing for less than a year. I already stockpile my CP because there is over a 40% chance that what I will get will be unusable. All that adding a daily 4* cover would do is get you into the same situation I am in more quickly. The bottleneck is ISO. You don't think so? Just wait. Just keep playing. All those extra 4*s you will be getting will become just another cover to sell. +1000 ISO. When you start desperately grinding lightning rounds for every scrap of ISO you can get, then we'll talk. And believe me, it *will* happen. It would get far worse having more people in the 4* tier, because from there things start to look pretty bleak. Getting 5*s is tough and relies on luck. All it takes to develop your 4* tier is time.

Don't get me wrong - selfishly, I would love to get more 4*s. I don't blame you at all. It is a natural human tendency to compare yourself to others and want to make faster progress. However, I acknowledge that most of those covers would go to waste, and that it doesn't really fit in with D3/demi's business model. My advice to you would be to do your best to enjoy the game while you can, before you have finished champing all your 4*s and start to despair that no further progress will be made.

DaveR4470

This discussion just illustrates an underlying issue with the game; namely, that D3/Demi have never been able to truly settle on a single master gate that controls progression in the game. There are three right now -- ISO, HP, and RNG cover acquisition -- each of which exerts various influence at various points in the climbing process.

There are certainly pros that arise from that strategy -- namely, that you mitigate the pay-to-win effect somewhat by spreading out and multiplying the necessary purchases to effectuate that strategy. On the other hand, it means that acquisition of EVERYTHING in the game becomes an increasingly agonizing slog as your level in the game increases.

If they were to focus on one gate -- say, ISO -- then there's no financial reason to throttle the in-game acquisition of the other assets. Spray 4* and 5* covers out there at will; the only way you'll actually be able to USE those covers is if you conquer the ISO gate. You've still got the business model in place, but the player arguably feels a greater - albeit false - sense of achievement and progress.

The downside is, of course, that the game becomes strongly pay-to-win, as monetary outlay generates a very direct in-game benefit. (On the other hand, the only thing keeping the current game out of that realm is the RNG aspect of the tokens and vaults, so.... would it really be that different in the end?)

Having said that, I think that inevitably the game will move towards a single gate model. Whether that's by increased/easier acquisition of 3, 4, and 5* covers or some other way I can't predict. But I think it WILL happen, because at some point in the not-so-distant future MPQ will have a playerbase that consists almost entirely of people in the 3-4* or 4-5* transition. And if the current agonizingly slow and frustrating system (more agonizingly slow for the 4-5ers than for the 3-4ers, of course) persists, people are going to get frustrated and quit to go to the next shiny object, because the only choices MPQ presents are agonizing grinds or super-whaling. And make it frustrating enough to "control" the endgame... and even those superwhales will go elsewhere. And those losses hit hard. Returning a sense of growth/purpose to the player, even if it functionally eliminates a potential source of revenue, is certainly better than seeing your numbers drop to unprofitability.

Evilgenius_9

ZeiramMR wrote:

san-mpq wrote:

It's not about having the same roster, Cenexin. Rather, it's about providing some entertainment to the people who have supported this game during it's lifespan. You can make it difficult (i.e. like regular 4* DDQ matches, or even 1v2) to prevent the acceleration for those with low level / undercovered characters. For others, I hardly think that one 4* cover every 40 days (for each character) would be game breaking or accelerate the cover acquisition greatly.

But it would accelerate cover acquisition greatly.

For an example, let's take an SCL 7 or 8 player that I would consider "middle of the road": they hit max progression for Story events, the 900 point mark in PVP, but only place highly enough for 3* placement rewards.
Such a player would currently earn the following in a week (assuming two short PVE events instead of a single 7 day) for 4* covers, LTs, or chunks of 20 CP:

5 4* covers from progression rewards
80 CP from event progression rewards (25+25+10+10+10)
14 CP from mission rewards
1 4*/5* cover equivalent from Daily Rewards (either an outright cover, Legendary token, or 25 CP)
Let's say 2-3 covers via lucky token pulls and cumulative Champion rewards of CP or covers
1 LT from DDQ every 5 days assuming the person can beat the node

That adds up to 13-15 covers for 4*s/5*s in a week (by all means people, correct my math if you see anything glaring). Your change would add another 5.6 LTs a week, which is about a 40% increase.

Middle of the road in scl8 gets nowhere near progression. Hitting progression and stopping puts me in top 200 all the time.

ClydeFrog76

DFiPL wrote:

Selfishly, I'd love daily 4* DDQ with an additional cover opportunity daily.

How is that selfish? Pretty much everybody wants it.

DFiPL

ClydeFrog76 wrote:

DFiPL wrote:

Selfishly, I'd love daily 4* DDQ with an additional cover opportunity daily.

How is that selfish? Pretty much everybody wants it.

Because I want it without regard for what that might do to the game economy.

But I've also noticed that since 4* progression covers became a thing, along with other stuff, that my 4* roster seems to be growing at least similarly to how DDQ impacted my 3* growth. So I can understand the "too much" arguments.