Why has Saheeli been pigeonholed?

Gideon

I would just like some clarification on why Saheeli Rai's 3rd ability is now set specific. It would be fine if wizards intends to make more vehicles in the future but I don't have a crystal ball and I don't think they will. In my opinion I think doing this is a mistake.

ZW2007-

I already commented on this in the Pre-Release notes thread but I'll sum it up better here. It's their new business model. First they started rotating what planeswalkers were available for purchase in the vault in order create a sense of urgency to purchase. This new approach is their way of making planeswalkers you already own 'rotate' by making them obsolete as time goes on and a new planeswalker can take it's place. In Saheeli's case, four sets down the road they might want to make a new Red Blue planeswalker. If that new one works way better with the cards in that set, you are more likely to buy the new one than just stick with using Saheeli.

Gideon

Bamboozled again.

Ampmp11

ZW2007- wrote:

I already commented on this in the Pre-Release notes thread but I'll sum it up better here. It's their new business model. First they started rotating what planeswalkers were available for purchase in the vault in order create a sense of urgency to purchase. This new approach is their way of making planeswalkers you already own 'rotate' by making them obsolete as time goes on and a new planeswalker can take it's place. In Saheeli's case, four sets down the road they might want to make a new Red Blue planeswalker. If that new one works way better with the cards in that set, you are more likely to buy the new one than just stick with using Saheeli.

I get this perspective however limiting play styles to one optimal condition gets boring. Half the fun in this game is deck crafting which this eliminates completely.

With the amount of time they want us to spend playing the game they shouldn't be limiting the limited options we already have.

The last few planes walkers have felt like the same cookie cutter design. Have this type of card and make them bigger. None of the new pws are remotely interesting other than their color combinations. Sorin, arlinn, j2, l2 are eerily similar in play styles and really are only interesting because of mana gains and color combinations.

Cookie cutter pws make them incredibly boring and uninteresting.

ZW2007-

Ampmp11 wrote:

I get this perspective however limiting play styles to one optimal condition gets boring. Half the fun in this game is deck crafting which this eliminates completely.

With the amount of time they want us to spend playing the game they shouldn't be limiting the limited options we already have.

The last few planes walkers have felt like the same cookie cutter design. Have this type of card and make them bigger. None of the new pws are remotely interesting other than their color combinations. Sorin, arlinn, j2, l2 are eerily similar in play styles and really are only interesting because of mana gains and color combinations.

Cookie cutter pws make them incredibly boring and uninteresting.

Oh I agree completely, I'm just trying to call them out for the real reason they are changing her as opposed to their official statement.

Feyda

Please don't go through with these changes to her. Her abilities were fine as as, now you plan to make them much less effecient while at the same time pigeonholing her into using one specific set of cards. Thopters was nice due to being a relatively cheap way to keep a creature on the board against those pesky enemies that have spammable creature removal. Increasing the cost of the ability by 50% just to justify the new mechanic smells more like a nerf to her than anything. The change to her Loyalty 3 is just.. no.

She has been one of my favorites ever since I managed to snag her back in bronze (thank you RC) and these changes are about to knock her down several pegs.

Beastvold

But, what's wrong with this business model? It actually seems pretty sound to me. In order to keep producing new sets and new content for all of us, they have to make enough money to keep working. As much as everyone complains here on the forums, I highly doubt they are making money hand over fist. The feel I get from the Devs is that they are working really hard to bring us a fun and engaging game. I get the sense they enjoy MTGPQ as much as we do, and are invested for the long run.

I've seen a lot of freemium/microtransaction games come and go, and many do not make it for even a year. While the games may be fun, if people are not spending money on them, they are unsustainable. Personally, I'm grateful that we are a year in and new content is still coming out. I'm willing to overlook the glitches and downtime as growing pains. Especially because when the game is up, I have a TON of fun!

I just hope there are more options coming for the frugal player (like me). I don't have the funds to drop $30 each time a new mythic comes out. But I'm happy to pay $5-$10 month for a game I enjoy. In the meantime, I am thankful for the Devs hard work, and really looking forward to Kaladesh tomorrow!

Ohboy

I don't get the complaints. When Kiora got nerfed everyone was screaming about a bait and switch because they paid for it.

Anyone who has a saheeli now didn't pay a single cent or Crystal for her. And there's nothing we can say is wrong with her new abilities since none of us have played her or the new set yet.

Furthermore, there's nothing wrong with a specialized PW. Gideon 2 was fun to play during bfz and I haven't touched him in a month. But the point is he was fun. I have zero regrets buying him because his existence made bfz more fun.

Complaining about PW no longer being relevant after a block is like complaining you can't use your fact or fiction anymore in paper mtg. It was fun while it was relevant. It doesn't have to last forever. That's how the game gets stagnant.

madwren

Gideon2's abilities ensure he remains viable, however. You can play entire decks without allies and yet still use all of his abilities. The only facet that makes him slightly less viable is his mana gains, as generating only 5 mana a match is somewhat limiting in the current environment. He's still usable, though, regardless of whether or not they ever add any more allies to the game, because his abilities aren't dependent on them.

By comparison, they want to reduce Saheeli's ultimate from being a fascinating creative opportunity--being able to summon [all supports]--to being able to summon Vehicles. Of which there are 11. Of which the vast majority are not worth playing (7 of them are 4/4 or 2/2), much less spending your ultimate ability on.

Why wouldn't people be upset? I don't care what planeswalker you're talking about, anytime you reduce someone's options from hundreds to ones, it isn't going to play well.

For the record, I don't mind the changes to the first two abilities.

Ohboy

madwren wrote:

Gideon2's abilities ensure he remains viable, however. You can play entire decks without allies and yet still use all of his abilities. The only facet that makes him slightly less viable is his mana gains, as generating only 5 mana a match is somewhat limiting in the current environment. He's still usable, though, regardless of whether or not they ever add any more allies to the game, because his abilities aren't dependent on them.

By comparison, they want to reduce Saheeli's ultimate from being a fascinating creative opportunity--being able to summon [all supports]--to being able to summon Vehicles. Of which there are 11. Of which the vast majority are not worth playing (7 of them are 4/4 or 2/2), much less spending your ultimate ability on.

Why wouldn't people be upset? I don't care what planeswalker you're talking about, anytime you reduce someone's options from hundreds to ones, it isn't going to play well.

For the record, I don't mind the changes to the first two abilities.

When was the last time anyone really saved up to use her third ability?

I actually forsee her using her third ability more often now.

madwren

Ohboy wrote:

madwren wrote:

Gideon2's abilities ensure he remains viable, however. You can play entire decks without allies and yet still use all of his abilities. The only facet that makes him slightly less viable is his mana gains, as generating only 5 mana a match is somewhat limiting in the current environment. He's still usable, though, regardless of whether or not they ever add any more allies to the game, because his abilities aren't dependent on them.

By comparison, they want to reduce Saheeli's ultimate from being a fascinating creative opportunity--being able to summon [all supports]--to being able to summon Vehicles. Of which there are 11. Of which the vast majority are not worth playing (7 of them are 4/4 or 2/2), much less spending your ultimate ability on.

Why wouldn't people be upset? I don't care what planeswalker you're talking about, anytime you reduce someone's options from hundreds to ones, it isn't going to play well.

For the record, I don't mind the changes to the first two abilities.

When was the last time anyone really saved up to use her third ability?

I actually forsee her using her third ability more often now.

I use her third ability far, far more than I use her other two. It's wonderful for fetching/reinforcing supports like Harness the Storm, which really performs excellently in red/blue, and I've used it for other synergies as well. I generate Thopters on occasion, but there are more efficient/dangerous creatures, and the second ability is largely useless.

buscemi

Ohboy wrote:

When was the last time anyone really saved up to use her third ability?

Don't assume that because you don't use it, and the AI doesn't use it, that it doesn't get used. I thought the same thing when they nerfed Kiora... I only ever used her first and third, so who cares if they nerf the second? The community very swiftly put me right on that one.

Saheeli has been an incredibly versatile pw, and in the time I've had her Ive built many, many different decks for her, some focussing on her first, and some her third. She'll still be powerful (I hope) but she's much less flexible now. I guess she stopped doing the yoga.

alextfish

I loved Saheeli primarily for her ultimate. I've used it with Pyromancer's Goggles, and recently TSN since I finally opened that last week. Her first two abilities are pretty useless without Drowner or Olivia. (Ugh, it does disgust me how the only cards worth discussing are mythics.)

So it makes me sad if the Johnnyriffic side to her (tutoring out free supports) is being removed

I suppose it gives me a reason to finally buy Tezzeret?

Szamsziel

I wouldn't say the 1St ability of her was useless without Olivia. With molten nursery it was 8dmg And 4/4 flyer. Olivia/decimator was useful but even without she was great. Especially for those without Kiora
She perfectly fitted in blue slot for events.

dj55

I'm super unhappy with the Saheeli change. I had her set up really well. Just got the TSN a few days ago, which made her nearly unstoppable. Been winning at about 95% or so. This change just destroyed my deck and made her useless to me. I was a little frustrated with the first two loyalty changes, but could live with it. Taking away the supports in favor of vehicles for her third ability is what blew my deck apart. I heavily relied on getting those four supports out. I use Olivia in that deck, so switching to Tezzeret is out of the question. I need red and blue. I fought hard to win her a few months ago. Finally got her stable, and now she's worthless. Right now I don't even really want to play the game any more....

dj55

Ohboy wrote:

madwren wrote:

Gideon2's abilities ensure he remains viable, however. You can play entire decks without allies and yet still use all of his abilities. The only facet that makes him slightly less viable is his mana gains, as generating only 5 mana a match is somewhat limiting in the current environment. He's still usable, though, regardless of whether or not they ever add any more allies to the game, because his abilities aren't dependent on them.

By comparison, they want to reduce Saheeli's ultimate from being a fascinating creative opportunity--being able to summon [all supports]--to being able to summon Vehicles. Of which there are 11. Of which the vast majority are not worth playing (7 of them are 4/4 or 2/2), much less spending your ultimate ability on.

Why wouldn't people be upset? I don't care what planeswalker you're talking about, anytime you reduce someone's options from hundreds to ones, it isn't going to play well.

For the record, I don't mind the changes to the first two abilities.

When was the last time anyone really saved up to use her third ability?

I actually forsee her using her third ability more often now.

I use her third ability more than anything. I don't use the second ability at all.

Brigby

Hey everyone. Just wanted to pass along some information from one of Hibernum's developers talking about SR's abilities. Hope this helps.

Hibernum_JC wrote:

I can guarantee to you guys that Saheeli Rai is still very strong. Energize 4 is very good on top of making Thopters, her 2nd ability is stronger (and there's a lot more Constructs in Kaladesh) and her third is absurd with the right vehicles (Sovereign Skyship being fetched to the battlefield 4 times is very, VERY strong).

As an aside we decided to do some changes to Saheeli Rai because we wanted her to have more synergy with the Kaladesh set - when we initially did her limited release, the Kaladesh cards hadn't been designed, nor had the abilities, and we anticipated Vehicles to be something different than what the ended up being, so fetching 4 Supports made sense. Now that Vehicles are out and have a much simpler design than what we were initially thinking, and since the ability was designed for Vehicles in mind, repurposing it for Vehicles made sense. Energy is also a huge component of Kaladesh, and as such granting her abilities that create and consume energy was a no-brainer.

This comment was posted on Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:21 am

buscemi

I notice that Saheeli's mana gains have been significantly buffed? This seems like something of an admission that her abilities were significantly nerfed.

I mean, thanks for keeping her balanced, if thats what you've achieved, but what makes playing with individual planeswalkers fun is using their abilities.