DefiantEmpyr's reply to 'The Letter'

blacklotus

The simplest way to handle this exploit from a programming point of view is:

CoalitionScoreField = Sum(CoalitionRosterMembersScoreAtEventEndTime)

Each player should have their own IndividualScoreField.

mouser

blacklotus wrote:

The simplest way to handle this exploit from a programming point of view is:

CoalitionScoreField = Sum(CoalitionRosterMembersScoreAtEventEndTime)

Each player should have their own IndividualScoreField.

That sounds a lot like MPQ alliance shuffling at the end of events.

Steeme

They need to increase the size of coalitions, say up to 30 members. They need to take the top 20 scores of those players for events. Rosters should be locked for a reasonable amount of time (ie. if someone drops membership, that spot can be refilled after something like 24 hours). Only members which contribute a minimum benchmark score in the event are awarded the coalition reward.

Seriously, by limiting to 20, and counting all 20 scores, you get side-effects like this:
1. Players come cry on the forums about how they hate <insert event here> because of <insert reason here>. The solution is just to sit out the event, but it's not a desired solution if your score will affect the coalition ranking.
2. Coalitions gunning for the top of leaderboard are reshuffling the roster when one or more players cannot participate. Losing a player can cost the team a mythic reward.
3. Coalitions with their green eyes on the top prizes are willingly and purposefully resorting to exploits to boost scores. Might be a side effect of top coalitions optimizing their rosters and locking the rest of the player base out of the mythic rewards.
4. Coalitions not using the exploit move further down the leaderboard. Some players in that coalition may then opt to move to a coalition that is at the top of the leaderboard, further perpetuating the optimization of rosters at the top spots.

There should be more breathing room for a coalitions. You may be able to poke holes at the suggestions but it's quite clear that the rigidity of the current system is causing a lot of unnecessary stress. The primary focus of the game should be FRIENDLY competition.

Ohboy

I would like a penalty for coalition hopping as well.

Maybe the first time you choose a coalition is free, but to join again requires a cumulative cost starting small but it adds up.

A coalition is not a coalition if members keep moving in and out like the ship of theseus.

Corn_Noodles

I will be opening up my tracking data to everyone in the next couple days as a Google spreadsheet. I had hoped to have it ready by yesterday but I ran into some outside issues that has caused things to slow down. I will explain my methodology, how I interpret the numbers, and the flaws and limitations to what I can gather and present. I hope this will give people insight to issues that may have occurred in the past and how to spot possible issues in the future. I am also still working on making all my score screenshots available so people can double and triple check my data.

span_argoman

If people are concerned about this point stacking thing during events, why not just drain a player's nodes to zero when they join a new coalition during an event? You either finish playing all your matches in your old coalition or just forsake them. But you can still move to a new coalition mid-event if you want, just without giving the bonus points.

babar3355

@BrucewayneDK Honestly, I don't even really know what you are complaining about, but I don't think you have a fair measure of the alliance.

A. Each of the original coalitions are independent from each other. In fact, there have been heated discussions where one coalition tries to poach or borrow a member from another alliance coalition. In other words, we don't just loan our players out for events to the top 2-3 coalitions. Some of these coalitions have now established feeder coalitions (which has led to its own drama).. but they may have a roster of 40 people to pull from, not 400.

B. Along these same lines, there is not a free flow of information between coalitions in the alliance. Each one has their own channel where they share deck ideas for events, discuss strategy, etc. Many people are willing to give tips on deck ideas and building, but we realize we are all competing against each other as well as non-alliance coalitions.

C. The only real advantage that alliance teams have is access to far better communication. Instead of having to rely on forums, awful in game chat, or setting up a private chat rooms, members can interact seamlessly using slack. Its quick, its easy, its effective. It helps team members share deck ideas, discuss game issues, warn members when servers are being buggy, etc. Not sure how this is destroying the game or whatever you attest.

D. What possibly could you have done to get rejected by the alliance? All you have to do is fill out a survey and you get paired into a group that fits your play style. I honestly have no idea how someone can feel rejected or spurned.. As an aside, Majincob has put in a lot of personal time and effort to sort people into their coalitions by competitiveness with no personal reward, dealing with complaints and egos, etc.. He deserves better than to be slandered by someone who is mad that a coalition (that Majincob is not in) in the alliance seemingly used an exploit. In fact, the reaction of the alliance is to ban the practice among members. Fine don't sign it.. but why are you acting like this was a personal affront or even a negative event.

E. The alliance has led the charge to enact change in the game that I believe the community benefits. The removal of the Emrakul event after 4 iterations in 2 weeks was outcry from the alliance in a concerted effort. Avoiding turning Kiora from the best PW to the worst, was based on alliance feedback on the forums. I would argue the alliance has been a huge positive for the game so far, and will continue to be in the future.

We are no exclusive, we do not try to prevent up and comers, and we just want to enjoy a game that really shouldn't be this choke full of dramatic responses to a letter that is seeking to make the game more fair.

Anyway, from my perspective congratulations on becoming a top 10 coalition and sorry you feel that our alliance is so toxic. BTW, I am another Deadapult member who is fringe top 10, but really enjoys the game.

octal9

babar3355 wrote:

words

A great, if not perfect, summary.

killwind

No one has answered the real question, the Elephant in the room, will your coalition use the exploit?

As a leader of Extinction, will we use the exploit. You bet your butt I would, but only in self defense. So let me clarify.

You are in a random fist fight with an almost acquaintance. While you are randomly trying to punch your opponent in the face. A sporting goods truck filled with baseball bats crashes near you,baseball bats everywhere. I still have my hands up ready to punch my opponent some more, but if my opponent reaches down for a baseball bat, its on. I will reach down and grab one also.

Ohboy

killwind wrote:

No one has answered the real question, the Elephant in the room, will your coalition use the exploit?

As a leader of Extinction, will we use the exploit. You bet your butt I would, but only in self defense. So let me clarify.

You are in a random fist fight with an almost acquaintance. While you are randomly trying to punch your opponent in the face. A sporting goods truck filled with baseball bats crashes near you,baseball bats everywhere. I still have my hands up ready to punch my opponent some more, but if my opponent reaches down for a baseball bat, its on. I will reach down and grab one also.

This summarizes why it's inevitable that coalitions will eventually all exploit the hell out of it.

Slowly but surely they will find a way to rationalize their behavior, and eventually they will find it so normal that they think they earned it, and the people who don't do it don't deserve to win for being lazy not to do it.

buscemi

killwind wrote:

No one has answered the real question, the Elephant in the room, will your coalition use the exploit?

That's probably because Batman there announced that their coalition wouldn't be interacting with us in any way in this thread. Its not a great way to get a dialogue started, is it?


[edit]Sorry, Killwind, for suggesting you were a part of DefiantEmpyr[/edit]

THEMAGICkMAN

I think everyone should OVERUSE it, if enough people complain, they'll fix it. hopefully. sure its a dirty trick, but a lot of people have all good EMN cards anyway, maybe this will help others get them. but i don't know quite enough about it to be of much help. the devs really just need to fix it regardless.

Ohboy

buscemi wrote:

killwind wrote:

No one has answered the real question, the Elephant in the room, will your coalition use the exploit?

That's probably because Batman there announced that your coalition wouldn't be interacting with us in any way in this thread. Its not a great way to get a dialogue started, is it?

I'm gonna just point out that killwind is in extinction.

Also can't resist pointing out that you guys are using an instant messenger instead of just these forums for a reason, but now you're implying that bruce's request to using an instant messenger instead of forums won't get a dialogue started.

Brigby

Hey everyone,

I wanted to comment on several points in this discussion:

First and foremost, I strongly encourage everyone to please play nicely; figuratively and literally. Coalitions were created as a way to develop comradery and friendly competition. We don't want this to turn into an aggressive environment where players and coalitions are in constant conflict with each other on the forum and off.

In regards to this exploit people have been talking about, it's a rather sensitive topic to discuss. Let's say hypothetically that there is in fact an exploit. Announcing the developers are working on a fix will officially confirm it exists, which may entice players who were originally unaware/in disbelief of it to want to take advantage of it. On the other hand, remaining quiet causes players to think we're ignoring them. Therein lies the catch-22 situation. This is why our stance will always be "We acknowledge your claim, and we'll pass that information along to the developers to investigate."

Continuing along with this hypothetical, should the developers verify the exploit and initiate development of a fix, please recognize that fixing something that influences so many variables of the game is not a quick and easy implementation. Those kind of fixes require time to identify, develop, bug test, and push out. Those would be the situations where patience and active discouragement of utilizing those exploits would be greatly appreciated.

In regards to this letter that has been circulating around the forums. We have in fact passed this letter on to the development team, they confirmed to have received and read it, and will be actively looking into the situation. Once we have an official update from the team that we can share, we will be sure to inform the community.

Thank you,
Brigby

jetnoctis

Thanks, Brigby, that's great to know. We love hearing from you guys when you confirm we aren't speaking into the void

blacklotus

mouser wrote:

blacklotus wrote:

The simplest way to handle this exploit from a programming point of view is:

CoalitionScoreField = Sum(CoalitionRosterMembersScoreAtEventEndTime)

Each player should have their own IndividualScoreField.

That sounds a lot like MPQ alliance shuffling at the end of events.

provided those that get shuffled out don't mind losing out on the coalition reward.

this shuffling is between the coalition's and extended coalition various members.

I have no opinion on this practice.

blacklotus

Ohboy wrote:

I would like a penalty for coalition hopping as well.

Maybe the first time you choose a coalition is free, but to join again requires a cumulative cost starting small but it adds up.

A coalition is not a coalition if members keep moving in and out like the ship of theseus.

thanks. you made me look up Ship of Theseus. Learnt something new today.

buscemi

blacklotus wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

I would like a penalty for coalition hopping as well.

Maybe the first time you choose a coalition is free, but to join again requires a cumulative cost starting small but it adds up.

A coalition is not a coalition if members keep moving in and out like the ship of theseus.

thanks. you made me look up Ship of Theseus. Learnt something new today.

I think it's worth pointing out the philosophers over the ages have debated the Ship of Theseus. The matter is far from resolved.

blacklotus

buscemi wrote:

blacklotus wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

I would like a penalty for coalition hopping as well.

Maybe the first time you choose a coalition is free, but to join again requires a cumulative cost starting small but it adds up.

A coalition is not a coalition if members keep moving in and out like the ship of theseus.

thanks. you made me look up Ship of Theseus. Learnt something new today.

I think it's worth pointing out the philosophers over the ages have debated the Ship of Theseus. The matter is far from resolved.

especially now with the improvement in transplant operations.

If I can replace all my body parts, am I still me?

I think the anime Ghost in the Shell/2017 live movie starring Scarlett J also touches on this issue.

Ohboy

blacklotus wrote:

buscemi wrote:

blacklotus wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

I would like a penalty for coalition hopping as well.

Maybe the first time you choose a coalition is free, but to join again requires a cumulative cost starting small but it adds up.

A coalition is not a coalition if members keep moving in and out like the ship of theseus.

thanks. you made me look up Ship of Theseus. Learnt something new today.

I think it's worth pointing out the philosophers over the ages have debated the Ship of Theseus. The matter is far from resolved.

especially now with the improvement in transplant operations.

If I can replace all my body parts, am I still me?

I think the anime Ghost in the Shell/2017 live movie starring Scarlett J also touches on this issue.

You don't need modern science for that.

Your body automatically replaces every cell in the body every few years

The Sci fi debate for this would be teleportation. When you materialize on the other end, the atoms you're made up of would have been completely replaced. Are you still you?