Sometimes the AI impresses me

KLALEARA

Whether it be luck (Which I'm sure it was), it can sometimes pull some insane tactics.

Last Hope vs Chandra

I cast Noosegraf Mob.

Chandras turn. She has a full hand, plus 3 of them already being full of mana. Nothing on the board.

Chandra proceeds to super cascade, as she has damn near every turn (Yeah, that kinda match). Takes control of my Noosegraf, and proceeds to pepper me with damage spells, and buffed up my Noosegraf with double strike. She damn near kills my Noosegraf, and ends up with an 8/8 zombie due to casting all the spells (One of the zombies should be mine by MTG rules, but whatever).

Anyone else run into impressive AI moves?

LeafHyren

Against a Koth that should not be in this event by the way...

4th turn in enraged. I have Ulrich and Bandit both boosted, and they are one turn from taking out this seemingly underwhelming Koth for Koth standards.

But them Enraged. I am close now. Suddenly Koth uses ability and matched 5, all fine there, bad luck but manageable. Casts Harness the storm, mind control spell, takes Ulrich now more powerful, Harness makes him cascade again, another mind control red spell takes bandit. And I can't remember what else the casted but his hand is cleared and my creatures attack me to take 108 out of Arlinn's 114... In one turn almost took me out with my own creatures...

Ap00calypse

It's beyond ridiculous, reminds me of the pre-nerf Chandra days. I now can safely predict how the match will turn out, just by seeing the opening gems. If it's all over the place, rest assured that every **** match you make will be followed by AI's good match and cascade. Not to mention the drawing. Koth with 5 Demolish and nothing else for 7 turns, with 5/5/0 deck ? Arlinn who can't get a single creature to attack, because the AI keeps drawing kill spells ? AI Nihilis who draws 6 Desolation Grips in a row ? JHCh D3.

BayTamago

Ap00calypse wrote:

It's beyond ridiculous, reminds me of the pre-nerf Chandra days. I now can safely predict how the match will turn out, just by seeing the opening gems. If it's all over the place, rest assured that every **** match you make will be followed by AI's good match and cascade. Not to mention the drawing. Koth with 5 Demolish and nothing else for 7 turns, with 5/5/0 deck ? Arlinn who can't get a single creature to attack, because the AI keeps drawing kill spells ? AI Nihilis who draws 6 Desolation Grips in a row ? JHCh D3.

It's starting to remind me of the blatant cheating the AI did in the original Puzzle Quest game. It was stacking the queued gems to get cascades while you were stuck matching off colour gems because it was the only move available.
I've had to deal with the Kiora jankery and the kill spam, assuming I draw any creatures to play.

I really hope some of the code gets reevaluted soon because those matches are **** and unfun to play.

Steeme

The AI is definitely not cheating, but they are constantly improving the AI behind the scenes. I've noticed quite recently that the AI seems to be:

1. Making better matches (ie. making an inferior off-color 3 swap in order to chain match an additional swap), similar to the type of combo a player would attempt, instead of just mindlessly matching primary color or opposition primary color only
2. Deliberately choosing a loyalty swap instead of an off-color in order to spam loyalty abilities; this surprised me at first, but I quickly identified it as a threat as it seemed the AI was trying to quickly build Liliana's loyalty to throw my cards out, or build Koth's loyalty to start chain spamming Reshape the mountain (ie. aggressive rush tactics)
3. Making more strategic use of cards, in particular awaken cards (eg. During an enraged match, instead of casting Ruinous path immediately to remove my troop, it waited an entire turn until the full Awaken cost was fulfilled before removing the same creature, so that it would spawn the 6/6 token)

As they improve the AI, the AI gets stronger. I don't think their intent is to make things more difficult, because that will just increase the gap between experienced players and new players (experienced players will still win). But when imbalances occur they have to be addressed. They have the data (we don't) so it's more of a blind faith type thing.

M3f

Last event before the current:

Plaing against an AI Nahiri - first turn - cascade for the AI from drops above the screen (so one couldn't predict it). AI plays Desolation Twin. I scrape mana somehow to remove one of those. Second turn - AI cascades again with a match 5 at the end. Plays Nahiri ultimate and Uncaged Fury. 51/51 Desolation Twin with double strike does 102 dmg to me. GG, match lost.

Ok I say... bad luck.

Next fight I encounter the same deck of the same player finishing me with the same combo in turn 3. Lotsa fun... Good thing I play on PC cuz it's harder to throw Your desktop machine than Your phone

KLALEARA

LeafHyren wrote:

Against a Koth that should not be in this event by the way...

4th turn in enraged. I have Ulrich and Bandit both boosted, and they are one turn from taking out this seemingly underwhelming Koth for Koth standards.

But them Enraged. I am close now. Suddenly Koth uses ability and matched 5, all fine there, bad luck but manageable. Casts Harness the storm, mind control spell, takes Ulrich now more powerful, Harness makes him cascade again, another mind control red spell takes bandit. And I can't remember what else the casted but his hand is cleared and my creatures attack me to take 108 out of Arlinn's 114... In one turn almost took me out with my own creatures...

It's so fun when the enemy steals yours cards isn't it? To me, its about the only time they really make a smart play.

Ap00calypse

Steeme wrote:

As they improve the AI, the AI gets stronger. I don't think their intent is to make things more difficult, because that will just increase the gap between experienced players and new players (experienced players will still win). But when imbalances occur they have to be addressed. They have the data (we don't) so it's more of a blind faith type thing.

See, the main issue isn't that the AI plays well. It is, however, that the AI follows a script that does not make mistakes that a human player would. Imagine 2 human players, one deck is somewhat superior to the other - but the weaker deck is played better. Now imagine the same thing vs the AI - the superior deck will win every time except for the rare moments when the gems aren't right. So it isn't a skill vs skill anymore, it's $ invested + script vs $ not invested + luck. So what's the remedy here, dish out $ every time D3 comes out with new powerful cards or buy crystals for x14 packs hoping to win the lottery ? Because right now, as the AI is getting "smarter", it plays with players' decks vs us; and if the player deck is packed with mythicals, it wreaks havoc.

So once again, D3 - how's that P2W model goes ?

Ohboy

Ap00calypse wrote:

Steeme wrote:

As they improve the AI, the AI gets stronger. I don't think their intent is to make things more difficult, because that will just increase the gap between experienced players and new players (experienced players will still win). But when imbalances occur they have to be addressed. They have the data (we don't) so it's more of a blind faith type thing.

See, the main issue isn't that the AI plays well. It is, however, that the AI follows a script that does not make mistakes that a human player would. Imagine 2 human players, one deck is somewhat superior to the other - but the weaker deck is played better. Now imagine the same thing vs the AI - the superior deck will win every time except for the rare moments when the gems aren't right. So it isn't a skill vs skill anymore, it's $ invested + script vs $ not invested + luck. So what's the remedy here, dish out $ every time D3 comes out with new powerful cards or buy crystals for x14 packs hoping to win the lottery ? Because right now, as the AI is getting "smarter", it plays with players' decks vs us; and if the player deck is packed with mythicals, it wreaks havoc.

So once again, D3 - how's that P2W model goes ?

People used to complain the AI made the game too easy, and it was getting boring.

Then the events came, and now we have people discussing if the AI should be tweaked to play properly, or deliberately left crippled.

Ap00calypse

Ohboy wrote:

People used to complain the AI made the game too easy, and it was getting boring.

Then the events came, and now we have people discussing if the AI should be tweaked to play properly, or deliberately left crippled.

It's not a chess game where, with everything being equal, what matters is the individual skill. In MtGPQ, players depend in a major part on their decks, and to a smaller degree, on gems. Therefore, playing an inferior deck vs an AI with set parameters that doesn't make too many mistakes and has a superior deck due to the player's real currency investment, makes MtGPQ an elite club for P2W players, because the rest of us simple mortals rarely stand a chance.

What D3 did was going from one end of the extreme to the other. It's either play vs other human players where both decks and skill will determine the winner, or play vs AI with set decks (read: challenges). Any other alternative will favour one other the other.

Ap00calypse

This just in, Arlinn vs Kiera:

I cast Breakneck - AI cascades x3 on the 1st move, gets World Breaker. I struggle for another 3 turns, trying to get anything else on board whilst the AI just keeps redesigning the board every turn. Any support I manage to cast, disappears within 2 turns. It becomes a very long, slow torture as Bring To Light -> Seasons Past -> Call the Scions -> Birthing Hulk -> Reclaim -> Resurgent -> Scour From Existence and a few converting supports keep obliterating the board every time. I manage to somehow get the AI to as low as 44 HP, then lose all hope as it casts 3 bloody World Breakers in a single toss. This is a 1 in 3 matches occurrence now.

Do the devs read the forums ?

Ohboy

Ap00calypse wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

People used to complain the AI made the game too easy, and it was getting boring.

Then the events came, and now we have people discussing if the AI should be tweaked to play properly, or deliberately left crippled.

It's not a chess game where, with everything being equal, what matters is the individual skill. In MtGPQ, players depend in a major part on their decks, and to a smaller degree, on gems. Therefore, playing an inferior deck vs an AI with set parameters that doesn't make too many mistakes and has a superior deck due to the player's real currency investment, makes MtGPQ an elite club for P2W players, because the rest of us simple mortals rarely stand a chance.

What D3 did was going from one end of the extreme to the other. It's either play vs other human players where both decks and skill will determine the winner, or play vs AI with set decks (read: challenges). Any other alternative will favour one other the other.

Your example of better decks beating worse decks is aways going to be the case, even in true pvp.

Looks like your arlinn went up against a very bad Kiora deck using world breaker. I'm not sure if that's the best example to use.

I get it. Things are hard with strong decks in the lower tiers, and colour mastery tiers are the main problem. It's allowing strong decks to stay in the lower tiers. It's a badly flawed system.

My suggestion is that instead of neutering the AI (strong decks already pretty much do 99++% against ai) and making it boring for some, the system should reward mastery points for doing very well in an event. That way, the strong decks eventually drift to the top and can't voluntarily stay in silver.

Ap00calypse

Ohboy wrote:

Your example of better decks beating worse decks is aways going to be the case, even in true pvp.

Looks like your arlinn went up against a very bad Kiora deck using world breaker. I'm not sure if that's the best example to use.

I get it. Things are hard with strong decks in the lower tiers, and colour mastery tiers are the main problem. It's allowing strong decks to stay in the lower tiers. It's a badly flawed system.

My suggestion is that instead of neutering the AI (strong decks already pretty much do 99++% against ai) and making it boring for some, the system should reward mastery points for doing very well in an event. That way, the strong decks eventually drift to the top and can't voluntarily stay in silver.

I think you might've missed the point. The example of better decks beating worse decks is valid as a comparison of Human vs AI and Human vs Human. AI has a script, human players have knowledge and skill. The true problem with AI equipped with decks from random players, is that it'll play it exactly the same (unless there's a conspiracy involving rigged scripts that favour stronger decks, but I forgot where I put my tinfoil hat). The AI sticks with the script and does not do irrational things whereas a human player is oftentimes challenged with a dilemma of "which one of the matches should I make", overlooks combos or makes any other mistake. Hence my example with chess - in order for the AI to be truly challenging for a human, everything else should be equal. But since it does not apply to MtGPQ, it turns into a shitshow that we're all witnessing right now.

The Arlinn vs Kiora's deck was an example how the AI wipes the floor with anything, just because it can. It's either the gem generating algorithm or something else entirely, but as of now it's nearly impossible to maintain a winning streak longer than 15-20, with a non-purchased deck. I've been playing more or less since the beta, and this **** is a recurring event. Every time D3 fixes something, they screw up another thing in the process.

P.S. I'm in gold tier, but was referring to both events and QMs.

Ap00calypse

Aaand, here we go again. Arlinn vs AI Koth. The AI casts Geier x3 and Desolation Twin, on the very first move. Good game.

OhanaUnited

I had a crazy AI cascade at the last event that went for 17 matches. Yes that's right, not 17 mana, 17 cascaded matches (and doesn't involve Season's Past). By the end, even the ultimate was fully charged.

octal9

Ap00calypse wrote:

Aaand, here we go again. Arlinn vs AI Koth. The AI casts Geier x3 and Desolation Twin, on the very first move. Good game.

I understand the frustration, I truly do - my only losses ever come against unreal cascades.

But I have to ask - how did AI play four creatures on its first move?

Ohboy

octal9 wrote:

Ap00calypse wrote:

Aaand, here we go again. Arlinn vs AI Koth. The AI casts Geier x3 and Desolation Twin, on the very first move. Good game.

I understand the frustration, I truly do - my only losses ever come against unreal cascades.

But I have to ask - how did AI play four creatures on its first move?

There's always card draw shenanigans possible.

But since this has literally never happened to me before, I think he might be referring to turn 3 or 4 and utilizing exaggeration to make his point.

Volrak

It's an interesting idea to tie the AI's playing skill to the deck owner's skill. But the AI seems fairly primitive when it comes to card ordering, spell and ability timing, and gem matching choices; this is why it's funny/notable when the AI does makes a play that appears "smart". The whole AI would need serious improvement to allow any kind of sliding-scale AI strength. The rudimentary AI, and the huge advantage the human player gets from playing first every game, are why humans win the vast bulk of games vs the AI playing an equal strength deck.

The fact that you do win the vast bulk of your games means it's a psychological shock when you lose. And the fact that the AI is poor means that if you have a strong deck, the only way the AI is likely to win (even with a stronger deck) is via a lucky cascade. It's pretty much an optimal setup for triggering maximum possible confirmation bias on AI cascades.

Ap00calypse

octal9 wrote:

Ap00calypse wrote:

Aaand, here we go again. Arlinn vs AI Koth. The AI casts Geier x3 and Desolation Twin, on the very first move. Good game.

I understand the frustration, I truly do - my only losses ever come against unreal cascades.

But I have to ask - how did AI play four creatures on its first move?

Could be a 3rd or a 4th, like OhBoy said. But the AI played it all on a single turn, the total # of turns isn't really important. And it all started happening right after the last couple updates.

And just to drive the point home:



This is a drop of nearly 5% in W/L in just last month. As you can see, I'm not exactly new to this game.

wink

Ohboy wrote:

octal9 wrote:

Ap00calypse wrote:

Aaand, here we go again. Arlinn vs AI Koth. The AI casts Geier x3 and Desolation Twin, on the very first move. Good game.

I understand the frustration, I truly do - my only losses ever come against unreal cascades.

But I have to ask - how did AI play four creatures on its first move?

There's always card draw shenanigans possible.

But since this has literally never happened to me before, I think he might be referring to turn 3 or 4 and utilizing exaggeration to make his point.

This is what I don't like about the new speeded-up animation. There will be turns where the AI starts off with 2 cards, then there is a flurry of cascades and cards flashing by too fast to follow, and then the are 2 new creatures on the board, and the AI now has 4 cards! Where did those cards and creatures come from?? I have no idea, because the animation is too fast to follow, and I can't tell if there is draw shenanigans happening or if there was some cool combo that I should be stealing.

Ohboy

wink wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

octal9 wrote:

Ap00calypse wrote:

Aaand, here we go again. Arlinn vs AI Koth. The AI casts Geier x3 and Desolation Twin, on the very first move. Good game.

I understand the frustration, I truly do - my only losses ever come against unreal cascades.

But I have to ask - how did AI play four creatures on its first move?

There's always card draw shenanigans possible.

But since this has literally never happened to me before, I think he might be referring to turn 3 or 4 and utilizing exaggeration to make his point.

This is what I don't like about the new speeded-up animation. There will be turns where the AI starts off with 2 cards, then there is a flurry of cascades and cards flashing by too fast to follow, and then the are 2 new creatures on the board, and the AI now has 4 cards! Where did those cards and creatures come from?? I have no idea, because the animation is too fast to follow, and I can't tell if there is draw shenanigans happening or if there was some cool combo that I should be stealing.

When I said draw shenanigans, I really meant cards that let you draw cards, not some weird bug.