Must I ramp?

MaxMagic420

I'm of the opinion that the older generation of planeswalkers is in dire, dire need of some help. They aren't competitive anymore due the massive imbalance with mana production. All the gen ones and the earlier dual color pw's are just outclassed at this point. Watching nahiri or koth or jace 2 pull 40-50 mana a turn consistently while my poor ajani struggles to cast a 14 mana creature is common and expected. I can't use the cards I need to use because I simply can't keep up without massive ramping, which if you're playing any color but green, is difficult to achieve. I have to either dedicate 4 out of ten cards to mana production or run cheaper cards that simply aren't powerful enough to gain an advantage. I really hated the kiora nerf because the first ability really helped mitigate the disadvantage of low matches. Now I have to have ramps instead of the cards I used to win with. At least a +1 buff to primary colors would make a huge difference. Does anybody else feel this way?

Plastic

Regarding first gen PWs, yeah they might have a harder time with mana, but that's why they're first gen and cheap to get in the first place. That being says, I still don't think any of the PWs have a hard time at all with mana while using 1-2 ramp supports at most.

Also, I still think they're going to release Liliana, Chandra and Nissa 2.0 in the near future. Just my speculation though. So that can help with your selection of mono PWs should it come to fruition.

bk1234

I have all the PW and Lilli and Chandra are still my fastest and most used. I run Shrine and Graftstone in both, nothing else.

MaxMagic420

bken1234 wrote:

I have all the PW and Lilli and Chandra are still my fastest and most used. I run Shrine and Graftstone in both, nothing else.

But you DO run them though. I rarely see nahiri, koth, sorin, or jace 2 ramping. I don't need it in my saheeli deck. She does fine without it. What I'm saying is that they raised the bar with the newer gen, and the second gen and up should be on an even par.

EDHdad

Koth ramps with his first ability, and it's not uncommon to see Corrupted Grafstone in a Koth deck.

Ramping with color-changing gems doesn't make much sense with Ajani. A 3-gem blue match will get 4 mana. A 3-gem red match will get 5 mana. So there isn't a lot of point changing a gem from blue to red.

If you're having trouble casting a 14 mana creature with Ajani, it's probably because the creature costs 14 mana. Even in the best case scenario, you'll need 3 color matches to cast, and you might need as many as 5.

Meanwhile, red and white have access to some of the most efficient creatures in the game. Examples: Devil's Playground, Oath of Gideon, Breakneck Rider, Goldnight Castigator, Volcanic Rambler, Reckless Bushwhacker, Lantern Scout, Geier Reach Bandit, Not Forgotten, Serene Steward, Scourge Wolf, even Paranoid Parish Blade.

Steeme

MaxMagic420 wrote:

I'm of the opinion that the older generation of planeswalkers is in dire, dire need of some help. They aren't competitive anymore due the massive imbalance with mana production. All the gen ones and the earlier dual color pw's are just outclassed at this point. Watching nahiri or koth or jace 2 pull 40-50 mana a turn consistently while my poor ajani struggles to cast a 14 mana creature is common and expected. I can't use the cards I need to use because I simply can't keep up without massive ramping, which if you're playing any color but green, is difficult to achieve. I have to either dedicate 4 out of ten cards to mana production or run cheaper cards that simply aren't powerful enough to gain an advantage. I really hated the kiora nerf because the first ability really helped mitigate the disadvantage of low matches. Now I have to have ramps instead of the cards I used to win with. At least a +1 buff to primary colors would make a huge difference. Does anybody else feel this way?

In response to your Ajani deck: In red decks I find that ramping via board shake can be a bit more efficient. I usually include Volcanic Rambler and Abbot of Keral Keep instead of supports. They can trigger a significant mana gain through cascades, they can damage or clear out supports, and they are themselves bodies that act as chumpers or put the pressure on your opponent. I find that leading off with a Volcanic Rambler is a good strategy because the AI might opt to expend one of its banked removal cards before you drop your real threat.

In addition, when you have some chumpers on the board, you can usually take your time building mana and loyalty, because the AI will be more focused on dealing with what is on the board rather than what you are building up to.

Rogan_Josh

It's true that the original PWs' aren't that good anymore but i don't think it's going to be an issue for long. I expect the originals to get a facelift sometime in the next couple of months to bring them inline with the newer models. Just goes to show that abilities don't really matter, it's a PWs' bottom row that counts.

Volrak

Have the devs given any indication that they think that a lower power level on original PWs is an issue? It would come as a surprise to me if a lower power level was not the intended setting for PWs which are of lower cost. (That's not to say some tweaks to original PWs wouldn't be nice to make here or there.)

shteev

Yep, I think you must ramp. 4/10 cards sounds high, tho, you might want to look at playing some cheaper cards in your deck. I'd say 2/10 is more like the average for me.

I'm especially surprised you'd name Ajani as a PW who has trouble with mana... i'd rate his mana production as one of the best in the game, and I prefer his mana to Nahiri's or Sorin's which are easier to get into trouble with during a bad board state. A single red, green OR white match with Ajani will let you play a Shrine, Journal, or Canopy Vista.. what's not to like?

Do you look for cascades on the board before making your moves?

madwren

Rogan Josh wrote:

It's true that the original PWs' aren't that good anymore but i don't think it's going to be an issue for long. I expect the originals to get a facelift sometime in the next couple of months to bring them inline with the newer models. Just goes to show that abilities don't really matter, it's a PWs' bottom row that counts.

To be honest, I'm not sure why they would be motivated to upgrade original PWs at all. Remember, their job is to generate two things: 1) revenue, which means getting people to buy new planeswalkers, and 2) new content, which includes new planeswalkers, that's better than what came before. Sort of an ouroboros, I know, but I can't see them saying, "Yeah, we really need to make Jace1 viable again." They don't. They'll just roll out Jace2, and Liliana2, and Gideon2, and keep going.

madwren

shteev wrote:

Yep, I think you must ramp. 4/10 cards sounds high, tho, you might want to look at playing some cheaper cards in your deck. I'd say 2/10 is more like the average for me.

I'm especially surprised you'd name Ajani as a PW who has trouble with mana... i'd rate his mana production as one of the best in the game, and I prefer his mana to Nahiri's or Sorin's which are easier to get into trouble with during a bad board state. A single red, green OR white match with Ajani will let you play a Shrine, Journal, or Canopy Vista.. what's not to like?

This was my initial thought as well. Ajani has one of the smoothest mana production profiles in the game. While it may not get as much in one chunk, he isn't affected by negative board states nearly as much as Nahiri or Sorin, who can get trapped into a series of 3's and 2's that Ajani laughs at. Ajani has tremendous flexibility.

Tilikum

madwren wrote:

This was my initial thought as well. Ajani has one of the smoothest mana production profiles in the game. While it may not get as much in one chunk, he isn't affected by negative board states nearly as much as Nahiri or Sorin, who can get trapped into a series of 3's and 2's that Ajani laughs at. Ajani has tremendous flexibility.

That's how I feel when I play Gideon 2.
You don't even want to alter any gem colors because it might mess up a potential break.
Both have very well rounded mana generation.
I'm also kinda having a tough time predicting what kind of ramp cards will be available in the future.
There seems to be 2 or 3 must haves and the others are just collecting dust now.

MaxMagic420

madwren wrote:

shteev wrote:

Yep, I think you must ramp. 4/10 cards sounds high, tho, you might want to look at playing some cheaper cards in your deck. I'd say 2/10 is more like the average for me.

I'm especially surprised you'd name Ajani as a PW who has trouble with mana... i'd rate his mana production as one of the best in the game, and I prefer his mana to Nahiri's or Sorin's which are easier to get into trouble with during a bad board state. A single red, green OR white match with Ajani will let you play a Shrine, Journal, or Canopy Vista.. what's not to like?

This was my initial thought as well. Ajani has one of the smoothest mana production profiles in the game. While it may not get as much in one chunk, he isn't affected by negative board states nearly as much as Nahiri or Sorin, who can get trapped into a series of 3's and 2's that Ajani laughs at. Ajani has tremendous flexibility.

I think you guys are right. And I love ajani. Don't get me wrong. It's purely an issue of speed. An a.i. with a 7 mana gain in two primaries and the consistent cascades the a.i. triggers make the ramping a necessity for me to keep pace. And four ramps in the deck was due to the draw clumping. I tried several configurations with two or three ramps and l lost matches due to lack of offensive options in my draw. Back to the drawing board. So now, i just run first strike/vigilance with lower cost creatures. It works fine, and I still win with ajani the vast majority of the time. I'm simply of the opinion that he could use a slight upgrade. Not enough to make him a red/white koth by any means, just a little. Keep in mind the a.i. mana advantage, that's the core of my apple here. When I play an a.i controlled ajani, they get plenty of cascades. They always do. Usually by choosing the worst match on the board and that leads to two extra swaps. That's a whole other discussion of course, but still.

Pacone

I use gem destruction creatures and spells. With the diversity in mana production others have mentioned, I have no trouble playing anything. I found myself in need of more card drawing, rather than ramp cards.