Are creature tokens getting "too powerful?"
HomeRn
Posts: 330 Mover and Shaker
*WARNING* Long, rant-like post incoming.
I don't know if anyone else thinks likewise, but I think it's time to shine the discussion spotlight on tokens in general.
Originally, tokens were an afterthought. Especially since the majority of the creatures you wanted to have out were not tokens - namely for their abilities or effects when played. Fast forward about 11 months and 2 major expansions with 2 "add-on" expansions (1 being released within the next few days), and I'm seeing way more decks that focus on stacking upon stacking creature tokens (in Platinum tier no less). Possibly because of how insanely efficient some of the generators have become.
For example, and possibly the biggest offender of them all (yet I don't think anyone has mentioned it before Harness the Storm got debuffed...): Devils' Playground.
Yes, this card is a monster in ANY red deck. 4 mana gets you a 4/4 devil token that takes it out on your opponent's first creature once destroyed; effectively able to deal it's damage on ANY blocker, a hard counter to First Strike and Double Strike with 4 or less toughness such as Iroas' Champion or Knight of the White Orchid... both of which cost many times more mana! Amazing efficiency, low cost, and it's hard to see it coming when your AI opponent has it charging up since it's likely going to go from no mana to fully charged from a single 3 gem match. If you ask me, this card is literally the biggest reason why Harness the Storm got nerfed so quickly. Who in their right mind wants to see their opponent doing that all the time?!
Then we have Eldrazi Scions. Possibly the originator of the strategy once they became useful after the update giving their mana gain a dramatic boost. Also, there's From Beyond.
9 mana gets you a constant, reliable, and tough support that continually creates 1/1 scions with defender and doubles as a secondary mana source. For those of you that play Hearthstone, if you know what Hogger does... this card is effectively Hogger - but even more problematic since the card literally pays for itself in 3 turns or less and certain colors have little to no way to instantly deal with it. That and Hearthstone's Hogger doesn't bring back normal Eldrazi if your opponent actually does destroy him. Sure, you can fly over the scions - but that doesn't mean you aren't dealing with the scion that's getting bigger every single turn.
Lastly for this little "rant," a card that can cause massive headaches: Oath of Gideon.
5 mana gets you a 4/4 Kor Ally token. Nowhere near as bad as Devils' Playground on paper by themselves... until you throw in Rally effects from other Ally creatures. Then things start to get very nutty. Especially if there's a Lantern Scout for Lifelink, a Veteran Warleader that gets +8/+8, or Hero of Goma Fada that turns everyone into berserking wrecking balls! Now add the fact that there are other ways to generate Kor Ally tokens - albeit not as efficiently - and you have a planeswalker that can get huge tokens with devastating effects in short order: Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. By the way, WHY has his second ability (which spawns a 8/8 HUMAN Knight ALLY token [which triggers Rally effects!]) and this third ability haven't switched places and their costs increased yet (9 and 12 loyalty respectively)?!
Disclaimer: For those of you that are wondering, YES... I have either played these cards before or I currently am running these cards with at least one of my PWs. I am just surprised I'm not seeing more debate about how crazy efficient some of these tokens have become since launch!
I don't know if anyone else thinks likewise, but I think it's time to shine the discussion spotlight on tokens in general.
Originally, tokens were an afterthought. Especially since the majority of the creatures you wanted to have out were not tokens - namely for their abilities or effects when played. Fast forward about 11 months and 2 major expansions with 2 "add-on" expansions (1 being released within the next few days), and I'm seeing way more decks that focus on stacking upon stacking creature tokens (in Platinum tier no less). Possibly because of how insanely efficient some of the generators have become.
For example, and possibly the biggest offender of them all (yet I don't think anyone has mentioned it before Harness the Storm got debuffed...): Devils' Playground.
Yes, this card is a monster in ANY red deck. 4 mana gets you a 4/4 devil token that takes it out on your opponent's first creature once destroyed; effectively able to deal it's damage on ANY blocker, a hard counter to First Strike and Double Strike with 4 or less toughness such as Iroas' Champion or Knight of the White Orchid... both of which cost many times more mana! Amazing efficiency, low cost, and it's hard to see it coming when your AI opponent has it charging up since it's likely going to go from no mana to fully charged from a single 3 gem match. If you ask me, this card is literally the biggest reason why Harness the Storm got nerfed so quickly. Who in their right mind wants to see their opponent doing that all the time?!
Then we have Eldrazi Scions. Possibly the originator of the strategy once they became useful after the update giving their mana gain a dramatic boost. Also, there's From Beyond.
9 mana gets you a constant, reliable, and tough support that continually creates 1/1 scions with defender and doubles as a secondary mana source. For those of you that play Hearthstone, if you know what Hogger does... this card is effectively Hogger - but even more problematic since the card literally pays for itself in 3 turns or less and certain colors have little to no way to instantly deal with it. That and Hearthstone's Hogger doesn't bring back normal Eldrazi if your opponent actually does destroy him. Sure, you can fly over the scions - but that doesn't mean you aren't dealing with the scion that's getting bigger every single turn.
Lastly for this little "rant," a card that can cause massive headaches: Oath of Gideon.
5 mana gets you a 4/4 Kor Ally token. Nowhere near as bad as Devils' Playground on paper by themselves... until you throw in Rally effects from other Ally creatures. Then things start to get very nutty. Especially if there's a Lantern Scout for Lifelink, a Veteran Warleader that gets +8/+8, or Hero of Goma Fada that turns everyone into berserking wrecking balls! Now add the fact that there are other ways to generate Kor Ally tokens - albeit not as efficiently - and you have a planeswalker that can get huge tokens with devastating effects in short order: Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. By the way, WHY has his second ability (which spawns a 8/8 HUMAN Knight ALLY token [which triggers Rally effects!]) and this third ability haven't switched places and their costs increased yet (9 and 12 loyalty respectively)?!
Disclaimer: For those of you that are wondering, YES... I have either played these cards before or I currently am running these cards with at least one of my PWs. I am just surprised I'm not seeing more debate about how crazy efficient some of these tokens have become since launch!
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Comments
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I agree. There are many unbalanced cards in the game, but some of these are really broken. From Beyond is particularly infuriating. Does D3 not even care about balance? Some of these cards should have mana costs at least double or triple what they are. Just because something is rare or mythic, doesn't mean it has to be obscenely broken.0
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Devils are definitely op.
From beyond is annoying but requires time and trample or flying will reduce/nullify its effectiveness.
Oath of Gideon is ok-ish and probably too good in ally decks.
With the current power level of the meta I can see only Devils deserving a nerf, probably a little increase in mana cost.0 -
Morphis wrote:Devils are definitely op.
From beyond is annoying but requires time and trample or flying will reduce/nullify its effectiveness.
Oath of Gideon is ok-ish and probably too good in ally decks.
With the current power level of the meta I can see only Devils deserving a nerf, probably a little increase in mana cost.
Green does have ways to deal with flying options - namely Plummet (4 mana, destroys any flying creature). Trample only ensures damage on the PW - trample doesn't stop the constant mana generation the scions provide, which can get rather massive with certain supports/buffs in play.0 -
Yeah, tokens used to be a side dish but they're starting to feel like the main coarse.0
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the balance to tokens is that if you run them you're probably 50% more likely to hit crashes because of the sheer number of bugged interactions with tokens.
so yes your winrate goes up crazy high, but it's evened out by the crashing, exactly as intended0 -
From Under the Floorboards gives you a 6/6 zombie token (3 2/2's) for 7 that has Madness 3 so it can be powered with discard and gives you 3 life.0
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well, as with paper magic, the biggest downside of tokens is when they die or get bounced to your hand. no graveyard shenanigans, and you can't re-cast them if they get bounced. I'm sure that's the initial intended setback here.
i think something that DOES need to be fixed is when they're bounced, they're considered dead. obvious one is with the devils. if i bounce them, they shouldn't be able to still deal their damage... Murder Investigation also comes to mind. when i kill the soldier, another one shouldn't pop out! i'm considering running an equipment deck with murder investigation...0 -
Corn Noodles wrote:From Under the Floorboards gives you a 6/6 zombie token (3 2/2's) for 7 that has Madness 3 so it can be powered with discard and gives you 3 life.
You think you have problems with zombie tokens now? Just wait til they release New Liliana and her Oath :-/0 -
Yvendros wrote:well, as with paper magic, the biggest downside of tokens is when they die or get bounced to your hand. no graveyard shenanigans, and you can't re-cast them if they get bounced. I'm sure that's the initial intended setback here.
i think something that DOES need to be fixed is when they're bounced, they're considered dead. obvious one is with the devils. if i bounce them, they shouldn't be able to still deal their damage... Murder Investigation also comes to mind. when i kill the soldier, another one shouldn't pop out! i'm considering running an equipment deck with murder investigation...
This is assuming the devs want/can make bouncing tokens to follow the same rules of paper.
Or maybe they don't know the paper rules?0 -
Presumably EDM will have a 4/4 for 3 mana, and then Kaladesh for 2 mana... Power creep seems much too lethargic a term for what's going on in this game.0
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It's a great spell that's like Devils' Playground - but it's not as efficient and the tokens themselves aren't as problematic as the ones I mentioned earlier.Corn Noodles wrote:From Under the Floorboards gives you a 6/6 zombie token (3 2/2's) for 7 that has Madness 3 so it can be powered with discard and gives you 3 life.
Sure it's possible to combo them with some of the new zombies in the SoI expansion, but other than that (and sacrificing them to Kalitas) - they don't have quite as much potential. Also, 3 life is nothing more than icing on the cake with PW HP pools that are 80+ at level 60. The Madness effect is only really good if you're triggering it yourself - if your opponent does it for you, then call it an insurance policy. Doing it yourself allows you to do some of the true combos that only Madness cards can provide - Sarkhan is the king of Madness right now if you build his deck right!
There's also Thopters... all the way from the beginning. However they're the most inefficient currently and require the most mana to get the strategy running. However, it is the most satisfying to get off! We will have to see how the Kalidesh expansion and once Sahelli Rai is available to everyone to see how Thopters get treated (however I see an even more EVIL strategy with Sahelli)...0 -
oath of Gideon is fine.0
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shteev wrote:Presumably EDM will have a 4/4 for 3 mana, and then Kaladesh for 2 mana... Power creep seems much too lethargic a term for what's going on in this game.
I am waiting for 4/4 for zero mana cost to reappear, also known as Mishra Factories.
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I think it's a bad sign when they release a P-Dub geared towards buffing a certain creature and you just end up spamming tokens.
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If you are having problems with this cards please stick to silver. Even from beyond is not a nuisance unless paired with drowner of hope. And they are rare. Rare and mythics are to be efficient and hard to deal with. Not poo that you can easily deal with.
Add removal to your decks and learn to play instead of asking for nerfs for every card that is a staple.0 -
That combo you mentioned only works with Kiora currently (since she's the only green/blue PW), and even then - it is indeed rare. Rarity however, is NOT the point - it's the efficiency and speed of tokens, especially now.venomAA wrote:If you are having problems with this cards please stick to silver. Even from beyond is not a nuisance unless paired with drowner of hope. And they are rare. Rare and mythics are to be efficient and hard to deal with. Not poo that you can easily deal with.
Add removal to your decks and learn to play instead of asking for nerfs for every card that is a staple.
Devils' Playground is arguably the most efficient token spawning card in the game without any drawbacks. 4 mana = a 4/4 creature that also acts as a bomb. At lower PW levels, this card can literally win games by itself since mana gains are so much lower. At higher levels, it can facilitate massive beatsticks before you know it (especially with Harness the Storm and other cards that can bring back spells).
From Beyond is the very definition of annoying. You cannot truly clear your opponent's board of creatures with From Beyond out. The scions will also provide a nice little secondary mana generator once your creatures start constantly banging their heads on them (bad for you since your creatures will eventually die, which can be offset by trample or first-strike), while more than likely other Eldrazi or other problematic threats show up sooner.
Oath of Gideon - and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar for that matter - can cause headaches even after clearing the tokens initially. Oath of Gideon is a support, which means it can be brought right back into the battlefield by other cards... which will spawn the tokens AGAIN. Not to mention that it also forces you to avoid giving Gideon too many white gems on the board - as a white landfall equates to even MORE ally tokens. Also, the tokens trigger rally effects, which can cause even more headaches (first-strike to all creatures, lifelink to all creatures, disabling your creatures, and worse).0 -
HomeRn wrote:
That combo you mentioned only works with Kiora currently (since she's the only green/blue PW), and even then - it is indeed rare. Rarity however, is NOT the point - it's the efficiency and speed of tokens, especially now.venomAA wrote:If you are having problems with this cards please stick to silver. Even from beyond is not a nuisance unless paired with drowner of hope. And they are rare. Rare and mythics are to be efficient and hard to deal with. Not poo that you can easily deal with.
Add removal to your decks and learn to play instead of asking for nerfs for every card that is a staple.
Devils' Playground is arguably the most efficient token spawning card in the game without any drawbacks. 4 mana = a 4/4 creature that also acts as a bomb. At lower PW levels, this card can literally win games by itself since mana gains are so much lower. At higher levels, it can facilitate massive beatsticks before you know it (especially with Harness the Storm and other cards that can bring back spells).
From Beyond is the very definition of annoying. You cannot truly clear your opponent's board of creatures with From Beyond out. The scions will also provide a nice little secondary mana generator once your creatures start constantly banging their heads on them (bad for you since your creatures will eventually die, which can be offset by trample or first-strike), while more than likely other Eldrazi or other problematic threats show up sooner.
Oath of Gideon - and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar for that matter - can cause headaches even after clearing the tokens initially. Oath of Gideon is a support, which means it can be brought right back into the battlefield by other cards... which will spawn the tokens AGAIN. Not to mention that it also forces you to avoid giving Gideon too many white gems on the board - as a white landfall equates to even MORE ally tokens. Also, the tokens trigger rally effects, which can cause even more headaches (first-strike to all creatures, lifelink to all creatures, disabling your creatures, and worse).
Sounds like good strategy to me0 -
HomeRn wrote:
That combo you mentioned only works with Kiora currently (since she's the only green/blue PW), and even then - it is indeed rare. Rarity however, is NOT the point - it's the efficiency and speed of tokens, especially now.venomAA wrote:If you are having problems with this cards please stick to silver. Even from beyond is not a nuisance unless paired with drowner of hope. And they are rare. Rare and mythics are to be efficient and hard to deal with. Not poo that you can easily deal with.
Add removal to your decks and learn to play instead of asking for nerfs for every card that is a staple.
Devils' Playground is arguably the most efficient token spawning card in the game without any drawbacks. 4 mana = a 4/4 creature that also acts as a bomb. At lower PW levels, this card can literally win games by itself since mana gains are so much lower. At higher levels, it can facilitate massive beatsticks before you know it (especially with Harness the Storm and other cards that can bring back spells).
From Beyond is the very definition of annoying. You cannot truly clear your opponent's board of creatures with From Beyond out. The scions will also provide a nice little secondary mana generator once your creatures start constantly banging their heads on them (bad for you since your creatures will eventually die, which can be offset by trample or first-strike), while more than likely other Eldrazi or other problematic threats show up sooner.
Oath of Gideon - and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar for that matter - can cause headaches even after clearing the tokens initially. Oath of Gideon is a support, which means it can be brought right back into the battlefield by other cards... which will spawn the tokens AGAIN. Not to mention that it also forces you to avoid giving Gideon too many white gems on the board - as a white landfall equates to even MORE ally tokens. Also, the tokens trigger rally effects, which can cause even more headaches (first-strike to all creatures, lifelink to all creatures, disabling your creatures, and worse).
which is why G2 > G1 by a mile at least.
G2 is the only deck I can play with only white weeny critters and still beat those Olivia/Drowner/<insert your favourite fatty> decks.
A pure white weeny deck that's low cost in mana and fast to react to any situation. The most expensive card I have in my G2 deck are the 9mana white ally Entangler and Encircling Fissure.0 -
Honestly like... what do people want... just swap gems and win without making effort... whats wrong with considering your decks to include more strategy to deal with problematic cards...
While i agree that these cards are quite powerful... these are still not that difficult to deal with. Since we dont have live PvP and only have to face AI which is to be honest not that intelligent. how.many games people lose... 1 out of 10? 2 out of 10?
Even less.
From beyond is annoying because it is supposed to be annoying. But if you have flyers or unblockables you can outrace it. You can use disabling supports. You can even use from beyond against from beyond.... not to mention 4 of the 5 colors have viable support destruction now. Also green supports are a lot more vulnerable to wearing themselves out because of the amount of green gem conversion shenanigans. It truly only becomes a problem when combined with other rares or mythics.
As far as Gideon Ally is concerned he is limited to use just allies, for his abilities to become viable. There are not going to be anymore allies so he is mostly just limited to the card pool from BFZ block while the other pws will continue to get more powerful toys with each new expansion. His abilities are fine in the long run.
The only card i consider a strong candidate for nerfing right now and that makes exploiting tokens too easy is Olivia. Not because its difficult to deal with but because i imagine It makes games too easy to win for anyone who owns it. Ristricting its effect to non tokens or maybe vampires may fix this. It will still be powerful.
Maybe drowner can do with a little bit of rework too. Make it summon just 1 or 2 scions instead of 4 when entering maybe? That would answer the biggest problem people claim to have with it.... that the first drowner pays for the second one0
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