Here we go again

Kikujiro

Ages ago (well, 4 months) I wrote this regarding rubberbanding :

Kikujiro of Christmas Past wrote:

Last night I couldnt sleep neither could play a lot because of flu, so I started thinking ... but all the reasonings are fever inducted so take all of this with caution xD

First I want to classify the point system in two sections, matches and sub-events.

The sub-events ...

There is one main event and main bracket with certain number of missions that rotate daily. Each one of them opens a sub-event when completed like in The Hunt or the current Hulk tournament and each one of them has a fixed value of points, say 40-50-60 depend on difficulty, where you always earn that number. So far we are walking on firm ground.
The sub-events have 4 missions, Easy-Medium-Hard-Impossible, with amounts of 100-200-300-500 for example, which is the maximum value you can win each time you finish one of them but not real (more on this later).
You can do these missions any number of times and always with the same fixed value of max points, but only in a short period of time (like 1 hour), then the sub-event is closed. So there are no rankings on these, only progression rewards.
The main event missions then starts a countdown to reset and let you open the sub-event again. The countdown may be 4,6, or 12 hours but, and this is optional, if you reach a treshold (3000 or 4000 points) in the previous sub-event the main mission resets earlier, 3, 4 or 8 hours ... or later like some sort of rubberbanding, but that wouldnt be so popular xD

The matches ...

Like I said before you always win the same amount of points on the main missions, but not for the sub-missions. How so ?
Those have a fixed maximum value of points, but you earn them depending on two factors.

1) Total level of your 3-team.

Say you have a lvl 85 Thor, lvl 50 Storm, lvl 40 Wolverine (175 total). Other fella have a lvl 6 Bag Man, lvl 10 Bullseye, lvl 30 Invisible Woman (46 total). The two of you do the same easy mission, three lvl 20 goons (60 total) ... he can win the max amount of points (100) because doesnt exceed the total goons level, but you win less points based on an algorithm which processes how better are you than the goons. More levels, less points.
This way you can spam that mission because you are faster than the other fella but win less or go to higher difficulties and earn more for each match.

2) Total health of your 3-team when the battle is over.

Here comes another algorithm because is not the same a lvl 100 Ragnarok than a lvl 10 Widow. Worst case scenario, two heroes down and the third crying out in pain ... if you have high level characters then you win one paltry point.


Pros: there would be more skill and tactical decisions. For example may I use Web Bandages or try to finish Hulk with a Thunder Strike with cascade and expose myself to Thunderous Clap ?
Cons: it would be difficult to tell people that they are not winning the maximum points in their mission briefing but a reduced amount based in the earlier factor too. Maybe with a new end combat info screen where you can see "I win this points because of this I lose that because of that".

Also these two factors may weigh equal, 50-50, or some other fixed amount like 65 for total level and 35 for total health. Even there would be rubberbanding, 45 for TL, 35 for TH and 20 for RB.
What do you think ? The missions part could be doable, the matches ... complicated.

I forget one thing regarding the total health part ...

There must be some number of algorithms due to matches against goons, against Dark Avengers and against a mix of them. More Dark Avengers, less punishment in points lost because low health.

I hope that I´ve explained myself simple enough with my rusty english

You´ve now entered the scaling zone ...

In the last 7 hours all hard simulator nodes have gone up at least 10 levels and I didnt even touch the game ... I mean, I´ve been sleeping. It´s still manageable unlike previous iterations besides Heroic Juggernaut where I faced the lowest levels ... shorter lenght, mutilated roster, played only a few refreshes and a lot people without NeanderThor to beat levels. But in 10 days events it goes way off whether you like it or not.

I get why rubberband exists, I get why individual scaling exists and I get why community scaling exists, I really get it, and I think I get how it works too, but feels discouraging. If the game scans the outcome of every match to calculate the scaling and punishes you for doing it well, could it be the other way around and rewards you like in my previous post removing scaling from the equation ?

Yeah, I know, the Main Offenders Team ( is there an alliance with that name ? I´m going to build my own, with blackjack, and hookers ). For many is Spiderman with his stunlock and his bandages. For others OBW with the stealing, the healing and the double whiplash. For few Magneto and his Infinity Engine TM. For Phantron all the aforementioned. You are all right, but with that system you can go safe chaining powers for minutes with Spiderman, Magneto or M. Storm and get a big price or win the same amount on 3 not so safe matches with Patch in the same lapse of time. The game could even scan health lost in the whole match instead of at the end of it, that way healing doesnt gain you more points, only more time to continue playing.

If I am fulfilled winning matches unscathed I´ll go for it. If I enjoy winning with the fast and furious way, apply equally. If I want to torture myself on the desert fight against 230´s M. Storm, Daken and GSBW or Thor ( One of these days Alice ... ) , so be it. But I want to feel rewarded while I´m doing.

Well, enough already with today´s rant, gonna play

Unknown

Yeah I am new so probably don't understand all this. I did the top row once, yesterday morning. Logged on today to find all the missions at deadly level. I'm nowhere near the top in the standings, have a mediocre team, have done each mission once, and now can't do anything else.

I guess this makes sense, to someone, but I'll be damned if i can work out why the game only wants to let me play each level once over the two+ days the event is running for.

Unknown

I got scaled into oblivion in last Hard Mode >_>
I have nothing against scaling per say, but if you are unlucky and get into bracket with ppl with no life... err... alot of free time its way to easy to wake up and find all nodes impossible
why not make scaling depend more on your perfomance and less on others =_=

Kikujiro

They toned down the community scaling, but cant get rid of it because rubberbanding. If it doens´t exists at all I could wait and join late to fight low level enemies for a huge amount of points while you´re struggling against high levels for a reduced amount.

Like I said, I get it but I don´t like it, hence my need for a total change

KaioShinDE

Kikujiro wrote:

They toned down the community scaling, but cant get rid of it because rubberbanding. If it doens´t exists at all I could wait and join late to fight low level enemies for a huge amount of points while you´re struggling against high levels for a reduced amount.

Like I said, I get it but I don´t like it, hence my need for a total change

I feel like this isn't as much of a problem anymore with alliances. You have to join early for your alliance, because rubber banding doesn't make up for several lost refreshes. If you just play for yourself, what's the problem with joining late? The other people you play against in your subbracket also joined at the same time and fight the same enemies. Sounds perfectly fair to me. And again, if you join late you will do well in your sub, but you'll get left behind in the main bracket. It balances itself out without **** community scaling.

Unknown

I play a lot, but I never really got to much into PVE until I felt like I needed to contribute more to my alliance. I understand scaling and rubber-banding to an extent, but sometimes I read an explanation that confuses me a bit. For example:

I have seen it noted several times that rubber-banding will not allow someone to overtake you (in the end) that does less work than you. If that is the case, why have it at all? Seems like if the points are all a flat value you get the same result, no? And the scaling seems like a vicious circle. If you use a team that clears quickly and well, your enemies get harder forcing you, ultimately, to use your Spiderman and etc. Which makes the levels harder yet again, until you have no options.

Perhaps I'm dense, but I do not understand it very well.

Unknown

I have seen it noted several times that rubber-banding will not allow someone to overtake you (in the end) that does less work than you. If that is the case, why have it at all?

It allows them to catch-up, then compete, which would be far harder (and sometimes logically impossible) where points are flat-value.

(That doesn't necessarily make rubberbanding right, it's more a question of what it's intended to achieve. I think it probably comes closer to its intended goal than community scaling does, though.)

Eddiemon

dlaw008 wrote:

I play a lot, but I never really got to much into PVE until I felt like I needed to contribute more to my alliance. I understand scaling and rubber-banding to an extent, but sometimes I read an explanation that confuses me a bit. For example:

I have seen it noted several times that rubber-banding will not allow someone to overtake you (in the end) that does less work than you. If that is the case, why have it at all? Seems like if the points are all a flat value you get the same result, no? And the scaling seems like a vicious circle. If you use a team that clears quickly and well, your enemies get harder forcing you, ultimately, to use your Spiderman and etc. Which makes the levels harder yet again, until you have no options.

Perhaps I'm dense, but I do not understand it very well.

No, that is a misstatement of a fact.

If I have a lead on you and we are doing the same missions at the same time, rubber banding will never allow you to overtake me. You will close the gap but I will win.

But if I have a massive lead on you and have done all the missions, you can quite easily burn past me with rubber banding. Timing is the most important element of not losing out to rubber banning.

Unknown

If it is the case that timing is the most important element, it would not appear to be of much benefit to newbie and casuals, whom one would presume such mechanics are designed for. It would seem to make good placement in an event much more opaque and therefore discouraging to those who have not read the forums.

Unknown

I agree with everything been said here really. I only realized this week, that me using OBW to heal myself at the end of matchs had a horrible effect on scaling my enemies for future games. The idea of implementing a system that tracks complete health lost during the game is a good one instead of what health you end up on. Your punishing people who play well, but yet if i lose when the nodes get to hard,the levels don't drop by much,if at all.

I've stopped using OBW after using her for the first subs and now my scaling has gone through the roof. IceIX said im up there with the hardest scaling, not top by any means but i hate too see whose up there and i feel sorry for who is. I can barely get through a game without losing all my guys,then i have to resort to using all my health packs, then waiting hours for my guys to recover.

If you want people to spend money and playing your game, locking them out of missions for hours cause they are too hard, is not the right way to go. People will spend and play more if they feel they are having a good time. This is not a good time for many it seems.

Unknown

Eddiemon wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

I play a lot, but I never really got to much into PVE until I felt like I needed to contribute more to my alliance. I understand scaling and rubber-banding to an extent, but sometimes I read an explanation that confuses me a bit. For example:

I have seen it noted several times that rubber-banding will not allow someone to overtake you (in the end) that does less work than you. If that is the case, why have it at all? Seems like if the points are all a flat value you get the same result, no? And the scaling seems like a vicious circle. If you use a team that clears quickly and well, your enemies get harder forcing you, ultimately, to use your Spiderman and etc. Which makes the levels harder yet again, until you have no options.

Perhaps I'm dense, but I do not understand it very well.

No, that is a misstatement of a fact.

If I have a lead on you and we are doing the same missions at the same time, rubber banding will never allow you to overtake me. You will close the gap but I will win.

But if I have a massive lead on you and have done all the missions, you can quite easily burn past me with rubber banding. Timing is the most important element of not losing out to rubber banning.

Like Eddiemon said, you don't necessarily win by doing more depending on when you do it. Lets say you grind hard from the beginning and I do nothing til I have time to literally fully do the nodes twice. Because of rubber banding my first run through can actually catch me pretty much the whole way up to you. It then becomes a matter of who can get the most done as late as possible when the event is going to end. If I can do the nodes twice as quickly as you then I can start later, get rubber banding on my early nodes and when I catch up to you i'll have more nodes left to do, the ability to do them quicker and beat you... i'll also have the advantage of less individual scaling cause i've won less fights at least how I understand the way scaling works).

If you can't play in the last hour of a PvE event (or a bit longer if 2 subs at once to give you time to do the nodes) then you basically can't come first no matter what you've done up to that point....ever....

Eddiemon

dlaw008 wrote:

If it is the case that timing is the most important element, it would not appear to be of much benefit to newbie and casuals, whom one would presume such mechanics are designed for. It would seem to make good placement in an event much more opaque and therefore discouraging to those who have not read the forums.

No I think the mechanics are designed for everyone.

Rubber banding means you don't have to be playing every refresh. You can have a life outside the game and still win. You do better if you know how to use it optimally, but even if you don't it will still drag you through most progression rewards.

Depending on the event it shares the wealth. TaT had rubber banding tied to your main bracket score which meant winning a sub made placing well in the next one harder, as people who did poorly had all that extra rubberband energy in the next sub.

Even a non forum goer would see the scores keep going up so doing them at the last minute when they are highest is best. We've had a few new forum goers express their understanding, and while it was wrong the general theory of points go up, play later was there.

Unknown

Eddiemon wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

If it is the case that timing is the most important element, it would not appear to be of much benefit to newbie and casuals, whom one would presume such mechanics are designed for. It would seem to make good placement in an event much more opaque and therefore discouraging to those who have not read the forums.

Even a non forum goer would see the scores keep going up so doing them at the last minute when they are highest is best. We've had a few new forum goers express their understanding, and while it was wrong the general theory of points go up, play later was there.

What? Aside from the people who had already read Nemek/your/the forums descriptions for how the mechanics work, literally every single "new forum goer" I've seen talking about the points system had no idea that the system was based on discrete stacks and thus they were screwing themselves by occasionally grabbing a couple of quick matches instead of waiting for stacks to refresh