Dusk Paladin's Balancing Act

DuskPaladin

Hey, guys! I've been playing MtGPQ since the beginning, and from my playtime I've had many thoughts about various Planeswalkers that I'd like to share them with you. Planeswalkers are the cornerstones of this game. They each have their own flavor and theme, and give interesting deck-building choices with their color combination. In many ways, they are reminiscent of Commanders in paper magic. It would be a shame though, that we lose such diversity because of a lack of power. Origins Planeswalkers are blatant offenders which could use a boost in power. They are also essential for newer players to get into the game and build their collection. From time to time, when I have more ideas, I'll add them to this thread. Tell me what you guys think!


Chandra, Roaring Flame

Flameshot
It was nerfed because of all the acceleration it gave Chandra. But, looking at Koth's incredible red mana gain, would it be too far fetched to allow Chandra a similar explosive power? Her propensity for support destruction, foe's and friend's alike, is part of her theme, and is both a boon, and a curse. She's also still really fragile with only 82 HP. (tied with Sorin as the lowest HP Planeswalkers)

Problem: Overcosted ability
Fix: Lower its cost to 5 loyalty


Jace, Telepath Unbound

Confusion
Jace's first ability was considered really good and has been nerfed as a result. What we have to consider though, is that it was considered overpowered in the early days of MtGPQ, where only Magic Origins was available. At that time, the metagame revolved around blockers (like Gideon's enhanced creatures, Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen, Skysnare Spider, etc.) with a scarcity of removals. The game has evolved way past that, reverting to its former cost would make it good but not overpowered.

Problem: Overcosted ability
Fix: Lower its cost to 4 loyalty, and revert it to -6/-0

Ingenuity
As collateral damage to Jace's perceived dominance, Jace's second ability got nerfed too. It never was a problem though and has been overnerfed, just like what nearly happened to Kiora's second ability.

Problem: Useless ability
Fix: Reduce the spell being brought back's cost by 16 mana at level 60


Gideon, Battle-Forged

Sharp Eyes
As explained, previously, with the larger card selection, and the inclusion of cheap removals, Gideon isn't the juggernaut that he once was. In fact, he only saw play again because of Runaway Carriage. A cost of 9 Loyalty is too high for his first and trademark ability.

Problem: Overcosted ability
Fix: Lower its cost to 6 loyalty

Call to arms
I get it that it seems to be Nahiri's signature ability, but why does it cost so much more, 15 loyalty as opposed to 9?

Problem: Overcosted ability
Fix: Lower its cost to 12 loyalty


Nissa, Sage Animist

Nature's Bounty
Nissa's theme is her connection to nature, and gem conversion, which are in line with Green's mana ramping ability. But, her first ability costing 9 loyalty is inconsistent with that theme and makes it unreliable.

Problem: Overcosted ability
Fix: Lower its cost to 6 loyalty

Nature's Gift
For the huge cost of 15 loyalty, she only gives a temporary +7/+7 boost, as opposed to a permanent +4/+4 boost, when compared to Gideon and Nahiri. Would it be too much to ask to at least give her creatures trample, and maybe reach too?

Problem: Overcosted and underwhelming ability
Fix: Lower its cost to 12 loyalty, and grant trample (and maybe reach even) to all her creatures until the beginning of her next turn

Tilikum

Hey, I always see you on the leader boards! Good to see you posting on the forums.
I'm digging all of these suggestions so far.

Killyah

As a relatively new player who until recently had to use those planeswalkers I'd agree with that. Chandra was my favourite of the original walkers, followed by Liliana. They didn't feel underpowered to me.

The other three really do. Jace's abilities are close to useless when you have a limited collection (at least my collectionn). Gideon was great with runaway carriage but not much fun now. Nissa's skills are really underpowered compared to Kiora and koth for mana gain.

Also all of the original walkers have poor mana gain, which is a real hindrance. I could forget their useless skills but they also make it really hard to cast things.

Getting dual coloured planeswalkers really opened up the game. Someone elses suggestion that mana gain should be fixed to something like +7 for mono, +6 for dual and +5 for tri coloured walkers makes a lot of sense.
https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=52808

Mainloop25

Good suggestions, i wouldn't be mad at any of them being implemented. With that said, i don't think the original planeswalkers were meant to be in the same level as the other ones you earn with crystals /money/events.

Morphis

Chandra is not in a bad spot in a vacuum.
I think it's Koth being too strong the problem here.
Buffing her wouldn't hurt but is not that much needed either.

Jace is unappealing.
Applying the proposed changes will make him stronger and bring him back to the previous niche of "most annoying pwalker" together with Liliana.
It's not a bad thing overall.

Gideon, good changes overall.

Nissa too.
Second skill giving reach is probably an attempt to make it different than Koth but it already is since nissa buff last until start of turn so it's also a big buffer to let you defenders/reach/vigilance survive defensively too.
So lowering the cost to 12 and giving it trample is already enough. Giving reach also would make it OP IMO.


So overall i am in line with your suggestions and I support these changes.

Rootbreaker

I wouldn't be surprised if the origins planeswalkers were purposely worse than other planeswalkers, to entice you to spend crystals or cash for the other ones.

DuskPaladin

Hey, thanks, Tilikum! I hope that our ideas can help make this awesome game even greater! About the Origins Planeswalkers being purposely worse than other Planeswalkers, well, abilities are one thing, but mana gain is super important too, so even with these changes, they would still remain weaker, but at least, maybe the gap won't be as great. Like, there would be time where we would consider playing them.

For instance, I didn't mention anything about Liliana, because I think with the new zombies, even if Ob Nixilis is obviously powerful, she still has her distinctive style. She works in a different way with them then Ob would, thanks to her innate discard ability.

babar3355

I agree with the changes across the board. The base PWs seem extremely weak... and maybe they are intended to be as they are dirt cheap. But at this point they are pretty much unplayable at high levels, and not because their skills suck. The problem is that they have such god awful mana gains and mono color opportunities.

Sorin being able to use both black and white is a HUGE advantage. Why does he also need to have +8 total mana gain? (+4 on white or black matches). The base mono-colored planeswalkers only get +5 net mana gain, and its much worse to have +3,+1,+1 rather than +4+2-1. Getting 7 mana out of even a single color consistently is extremely strong.

Regardless, /signed

mouser

I'm guessing we'll see 2.0 versions of Nissa, Chandra and Lilliana released in the coming months, fwiw.

Rootbreaker

mouser wrote:

I'm guessing we'll see 2.0 versions of Nissa, Chandra and Lilliana released in the coming months, fwiw.

Seems likely, with Liliana having a card in in EMN and Chandra & Nissa having cards in Kaladesh.

tm00

They are designed to be worse, but I'm a bit surprised that they keept nissa's last ability, it feels nearly always useless, it's fourth level is not really my idea of a reward for getting the last level

jeremii

tm00 wrote:

They are designed to be worse, but I'm a bit surprised that they keept nissa's last ability, it feels nearly always useless, it's fourth level is not really my idea of a reward for getting the last level

I actually think Nissa's 3rd can be useful sometimes. For example, I would wait for the right time to cast the 3rd ability in order to cast Great Aurora first and then also bring out 3 large creatures onto the board. It's usually game over after that.

shteev

Re: Jace's 1st

Personally I think -X/-0 is barking up the wrong tree. Creatures are starting to get pretty big in platinum tier now... Olivia, Octopi, Hydras, Collossi, Werewolves... there are any number of ways to get a creature on the board which has >10 power... sometimes much greater.

I think Jace's 1st should be '6: reduce target creature's power to 0'. It scales well throughout all levels of play, and it's comparable but still generally worse than Ajani's 1st. It combos incredibly well with Welcome to the Fold, of course, but then Exert Influence already exists, and you'd be forced into mono-blue if you wanted to play both of them.

tomatus89

Good changes. But probably won't happen... I'm surprised that we are allowed to take them from lvl 50 to 60. They just want us to spend money on better PWs.

Corn_Noodles

shteev wrote:

I think Jace's 1st should be '6: reduce target creature's power to 0'. It scales well throughout all levels of play, and it's comparable but still generally worse than Ajani's 1st. It combos incredibly well with Welcome to the Fold, of course, but then Exert Influence already exists, and you'd be forced into mono-blue if you wanted to play both of them.

I like where you're going with this.

DuskPaladin

I agree, this could be a really good fix. As you mentioned, similar to Ajani's ability, but this way, both still have their perks. And, yea, 6 loyalty seems about right for such ability.

Xakarath

Jace's First ability should be to reduce target creatures power to 1 for 3 . 1 power would force creatures to still attack and still be a minor threat. Detain is more of a white ability.

Jace's Second ability I don't want returned to 16 mana. Perhaps 6 or 8 mana reduction but what I really want to see is it's cost reduced.

Plastic

Xakarath wrote:

Jace's First ability should be to reduce target creatures power to 1 for 3 . 1 power would force creatures to still attack and still be a minor threat. Detain is more of a white ability.

No no no! This is what got Jace nerfed in the first place! (and rightfully so)

Xakarath wrote:

Jace's Second ability I don't want returned to 16 mana. Perhaps 6 or 8 mana reduction but what I really want to see is it's cost reduced.

His second ability does need to be reworked for sure. Currently it's overcosted for what it does.