Why is there an active bug in this Event? (Sigarda/Hexproof)

johnnyde76

OK so this problem/bug is ESPECIALLY annoying when it's something included in a major event. So Avacyn's Madness has Sigarda in it.

She gives Hexproof to Humans. One of which is the pretty powerful Geier Reach Bandit.

Usually when you disable any creature (Aligned Hedron Network, Hixus, just to name a few), it takes Hexproof (as well as any other ability) off of that creature.

For some reason, any creatures that get Hexproof from Sigarda are NOT LOSING HEXPROOF.

Those two creatures happen to be in the same node/creature encounter.

Why is there a bug that is part of an event?

This is a bug that will cost people wins. If that GR Bandit gets hexproof early in that encounter, how is anyone supposed to race that when the creature has 289 Health??

Plastic

She gives them hexproof, she isn't providing a hexproof aura that says "While Sigarda is in play, your creatures gain hexproof."

madwren

johnnyde76 wrote:

This is a bug that will cost people wins. If that GR Bandit gets hexproof early in that encounter, how is anyone supposed to race that when the creature has 289 Health??

I'd suggest blocking it, bouncing it, or using a creature sweeper.

Splizwarf

Plastic wrote:

She gives them hexproof, she isn't providing a hexproof aura that says "While Sigarda is in play, your creatures gain hexproof."

If this is true then why is Hexproof given to your Humans when you steal her via Turn Against and then removed when she goes back to her owner? While the TEXT doesn't say she provides a Hexproof aura, that's still what she's currently doing in actual gameplay.

Outbreeder

He shouldn't have to block, bounce, or sweep. You guys don't quite get it. As you know, Hexproof means you cannot target. However, you can still disable with a non-targeting spell ("all oppents creatures" or some variation thereof). Once disabled, it's abilities (including hexproof) are no longer active, and the creature should be vulnerable to hexes (it can be targeted).

There are a lot of card rule errors in this game. For additional example, the following:

Harbinger of the Tides should not be able to target tokens when it enters the battlefield, because Harbinger clearly states that it returns target creature to opponent's hand. A token was never in the opponent's hand, thus it cannot "return" to where it has never been. Furthermore, if you insist against reasonable logic that Harbinger is going to destroy tokens such as Red Devil anyway, then Red Devil should be able to do damage equal to it's power to opponent's first creature like it states. My Red Devil's are destroyed by Harbinger's ability to return target creature to opponent's hand, but Red Devil's ability to, when destroyed, do damage equal to it's power to opponent's first creature does not happen.

malafein

Awoken Horror AI has the bugged card Thing in Ice which freezes the game and forces you to quit and lose a match.. Just lost a match because of that, which is quite frustrating.

Ohboy

When you lead with things like these

Outbreeder wrote:

Harbinger of the Tides should not be able to target tokens when it enters the battlefield, because Harbinger clearly states that it returns target creature to opponent's hand. A token was never in the opponent's hand, thus it cannot "return" to where it has never been.

It's hard to take you seriously. Which is a pity because this

Outbreeder wrote:

Furthermore, if you insist against reasonable logic that Harbinger is going to destroy tokens such as Red Devil anyway, then Red Devil should be able to do damage equal to it's power to opponent's first creature like it states. My Red Devil's are destroyed by Harbinger's ability to return target creature to opponent's hand, but Red Devil's ability to, when destroyed, do damage equal to it's power to opponent's first creature does not happen.

Is an actual bug.

Outbreeder

Ohboy wrote:

When you lead with things like these

Outbreeder wrote:

Harbinger of the Tides should not be able to target tokens when it enters the battlefield, because Harbinger clearly states that it returns target creature to opponent's hand. A token was never in the opponent's hand, thus it cannot "return" to where it has never been.

It's hard to take you seriously.

You may be right. Harbinger targeting tokens and then destroying them since it can't return them to opponent's hand might not be a bug. But I have seen other "return target creature to opponent's hand" cards not work on tokens. Is *that a bug? Are they supposed to destroy tokens? And if so, how come the bounce spells/abilities don't state that additional little tidbit? And how can you "return" something to somewhere it has never been? A Red Devil comes out in the form of a spell. The spell to summon the Red Devil was in my hand, not the Red Devil itself. Similarly, a Kor Ally token can come out via Oath of Gideon. How can a Kor Ally be returned to my hand? Logically it can't (it was never there!) and should be immune to the bounce spell. If it's gets destroyed as an alternative because it's a token, shouldn't that count as an additional ability that should be stated on the card doing the bouncing? I certainly don't think it should just be a given, because it's not even logical. If I am wrong, don't cut me down, explain it. I am here to gain information, as well as provide it. I think we all are.

johnnyde76

Yes, for those not understanding what I am saying - I have no problem with Sigarda giving Hexproof "permanently".

Just like Outbreeder mentioned (and I am only reiterating this since I want to make sure the Devs understand what I am seeing as a bug), when a creature gets disabled then it is supposed to wipe all text/abilities from that card. Yet somehow Hexproof stays when a creature becomes disabled.

johnnyde76

madwren wrote:

johnnyde76 wrote:

This is a bug that will cost people wins. If that GR Bandit gets hexproof early in that encounter, how is anyone supposed to race that when the creature has 289 Health??

I'd suggest blocking it, bouncing it, or using a creature sweeper.

Really Mike? lol.

Ohboy

Outbreeder wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

When you lead with things like these

Outbreeder wrote:

Harbinger of the Tides should not be able to target tokens when it enters the battlefield, because Harbinger clearly states that it returns target creature to opponent's hand. A token was never in the opponent's hand, thus it cannot "return" to where it has never been.

It's hard to take you seriously.

You may be right. Harbinger targeting tokens and then destroying them since it can't return them to opponent's hand might not be a bug. But I have seen other "return target creature to opponent's hand" cards not work on tokens. Is *that a bug? Are they supposed to destroy tokens? And if so, how come the bounce spells/abilities don't state that additional little tidbit? And how can you "return" something to somewhere it has never been? A Red Devil comes out in the form of a spell. The spell to summon the Red Devil was in my hand, not the Red Devil itself. Similarly, a Kor Ally token can come out via Oath of Gideon. How can a Kor Ally be returned to my hand? Logically it can't (it was never there!) and should be immune to the bounce spell. If it's gets destroyed as an alternative because it's a token, shouldn't that count as an additional ability that should be stated on the card doing the bouncing? I certainly don't think it should just be a given, because it's not even logical. If I am wrong, don't cut me down, explain it. I am here to gain information, as well as provide it. I think we all are.

OK here goes.

Returning to hand always works the same way in mtg. If it's a creature card, the card is returned to hand. But if it's a token, it's moved to the graveyard. This rule has been unchanged for decades(wow this game is old)

The reason why it's not explained on the card is because this is one of the basic rules of mtg. It's like having to explain that creature cards are creatures. I think the game assumes players have some basic mtg knowledge.

Any card that can target a creature should be able to target a token unless written on the card itself. There were (not sure if fixed) some cards that couldn't target tokens. That's a bug, not a feature.

That said, some stuff don't follow mtg rules in this game. They are clearly bugs, but I think we're sick of waiting for devs to fix them, and they have just become 'rules' we've come to accept in the game. One such bug is the creature triggering "comes into plau" effects when stolen/returned.

Outbreeder

Ohboy wrote:

...One such bug is the creature triggering "comes into play" effects when stolen/returned.

Yeah that's definitely a legit bug. As for the explanation, thank you. I'm slightly embarrassed to say that I actually play MTG, but had forgotten that was a rule. Due to unfortunate circumstances my cards had to be taken far away for proper storage (and to be passed down to my son when he's older). I play PQ as a substitute, and it's been so long now that I'm a bit rusty on some of the rules. Yes, even rules as common and well known as that one. Again, thanks for clearing that up. Cheers.

ZW2007-

Just to clarify on the token "returning" to it's owner's hand. "Returning" in the case of tokens is only said that way for the sake of consistency in the game. The majority of creatures come from a player's hand the majority of the time and so for consistency in card text they use that phrase to cover all situations of a creature being put into a player's hand (Think returning a creature to the battlefield from the graveyard that was never actually on the battlefield but instead discarded by Liliana or some other effect). A token creature is no different from any other creature on the battlefield except it is not represented by a physical magic card. If a token creature leaves the battlefield, it ceases to exist. So the devils being bounced and not doing their damage is NOT a bug.

From the comprehensive rules:
110.5f. A token that’s phased out, or that’s in a zone other than the battlefield, ceases to exist. This is a state-based action; see rule 704. (Note that if a token changes zones, applicable triggered abilities will trigger before the token ceases to exist.)

So in the case of your devils getting bounced, the token is in fact returned to your hand, and then ceases to exist. It doesn't die and go to the graveyard. It is treated the same way as any other creature. It returns to your hand just like your Akoum Firebird would be. Except tokens can't exist in any zone other than the battlefield, so it stops existing. If the AI destroys the devils, the ability would trigger and deal the damage to the opponent's first creature, it would then go to the graveyard and trigger any ability that triggers when something is put into the graveyard, then it ceases to exist.

Hope that clears things up a little. Sorry to derail this further from the original topic. The OP is correct in it being a bug. It doesn't matter how Geier Reach Bandit got hexproof, all that matters is that once it has it, becoming disabled should remove hexproof and apparently it does not. It is possible that the way it is coded for Sigarda to give hexproof is what prevents it from losing it. If anyone has Rattlechains it would probably be a similar situation with other spirits that were given hexproof by Rattlechains.

Rogan_Josh

johnnyde76 wrote:

Yes, for those not understanding what I am saying - I have no problem with Sigarda giving Hexproof "permanently".

Just like Outbreeder mentioned (and I am only reiterating this since I want to make sure the Devs understand what I am seeing as a bug), when a creature gets disabled then it is supposed to wipe all text/abilities from that card. Yet somehow Hexproof stays when a creature becomes disabled.

Yes it's an either/or type of problem.

Currently as the card is written the hexproof is an ability that is active as long as the card has the ability to do so (like being in play for example). Disabling it should remove the hexproof. This is a bug.

If the card read "When [this card] comes into play give you and all humans' you control hexproof" this is a triggered ability and will grant, upon resolving, hexproof to any target that fits the restrictions (you and human creatures you control). Disabling the card would not remove the hexproof.

Hope this clarifies the bug somewhat.