Planeswalker Mana Rebalance

moogus
moogus Posts: 24
edited October 2016 in MtGPQ Suggestions & Feedback
I think it's pretty obvious that very little thought was put into planeswalker mana progression. We have the original five who have net +5 mana progressing to Jace 2.0 at +9. Clearly the intent is to push people to purchase increasingly powerful planeswalkers, but this really limits player choice and is also very frustrating for newer players I suspect. I think the game is mature at this point that it would make sense to rebalance every planeswalker and bring them closer to similar power levels. Personally I think planeswalker variety and power should be based more on the decks they can enable/support though their colors and abilities, not based on how much mana they can generate.

Comments

  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    I support the idea, but did you see the massive whining when they were going to nerf Koria to only slightly above average?
  • Corn_Noodles
    Corn_Noodles Posts: 477 Mover and Shaker
    Ohboy wrote:
    I support the idea, but did you see the massive whining when they were going to nerf Koria to only slightly above average?
    You are completely wrong. Kiora's proposed changes revolved around her abilities, not her mana bonuses.
  • Pacone
    Pacone Posts: 61
    In fact, Kiora's mana bonuses are lower than other new pws...

    Anyway, I disagree because as long as pws don't have the same store value, they shouldn't have the same power level.

    It would be like balancing power level of mythics and common cards because, you know, it would be fair.
  • Pqmtg-
    Pqmtg- Posts: 282
    Corn Noodles wrote:
    Ohboy wrote:
    I support the idea, but did you see the massive whining when they were going to nerf Koria to only slightly above average?
    You are completely wrong. Kiora's proposed changes revolved around her abilities, not her mana bonuses.

    She was nerfed yes? We talking about nerfing walkers with high mana gains yes?

    You can grasp the parallel now yes?
  • Corn_Noodles
    Corn_Noodles Posts: 477 Mover and Shaker
    Pqmtg- wrote:
    Corn Noodles wrote:
    Ohboy wrote:
    I support the idea, but did you see the massive whining when they were going to nerf Koria to only slightly above average?
    You are completely wrong. Kiora's proposed changes revolved around her abilities, not her mana bonuses.

    She was nerfed yes? We talking about nerfing walkers with high mana gains yes?

    You can grasp the parallel now yes?
    Her mana gains for matches were not a part of any "nerf". You are incorrect on this and many other things.
  • Xakarath
    Xakarath Posts: 37
    They all need to be balanced, else mana costs will be impossible to figure out later on. Let mono walkers have +9, Dual walkers +8, and when they drop, Tri color walkers +7.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2016
    I don't have a problem with their manna gains. Like pp said. They correspond with their market value. If you want more manna gain, spend the money or crystals to get it.

    Also to be considered is the fact that AI is set up to manna-deny you. I was playing my Koth against Nissa today and twice she skipped out on 5 gem green matches for a red 3 match.

    Joke was on her, both of those created res-3's on their second turn.

    Also per the Kiora nerf, nothing was being done to her manna gain and no one was upset about her ability 1 nerf. That was fair -- the ability 2 nerf made it less valuable than the first ability.
  • Pqmtg-
    Pqmtg- Posts: 282
    Corn Noodles wrote:
    Pqmtg- wrote:
    Corn Noodles wrote:
    Ohboy wrote:
    I support the idea, but did you see the massive whining when they were going to nerf Koria to only slightly above average?
    You are completely wrong. Kiora's proposed changes revolved around her abilities, not her mana bonuses.

    She was nerfed yes? We talking about nerfing walkers with high mana gains yes?

    You can grasp the parallel now yes?
    Her mana gains for matches were not a part of any "nerf". You are incorrect on this and many other things.

    Fine I'll dumb it down further.

    The suggestion is to reduce and real ancestors mana gain on walkers(that some people paid money for).

    This is a nerf to the Walker.

    Last update Kiora(people paid money for it too) was announced to be nerfed in abilities.

    This is a nerf to Kiora.

    There was a **** storm from people who paid money for Kiora saying she should not be nerfed because that's what they paid for.

    This suggestion also nerfs planeswalkers that people paid for. How it's nerfed is irrelevant. I don't know why you're fixated on that. I never even said it was kiora's mana gains that got nerfed. What's relevant is that the complaint will be the same. People paid money for X. X got nerfed. People mad.
  • Pqmtg-
    Pqmtg- Posts: 282
    bken1234 wrote:
    I don't have a problem with their manna gains. Like pp said. They correspond with their market value. If you want more manna gain, spend the money or crystals to get it.

    The problem is power creep. If there's no guideline to follow, they'll be forced to introduce more and more powerful walkers to boost sales.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
    Pqmtg- wrote:
    bken1234 wrote:
    I don't have a problem with their manna gains. Like pp said. They correspond with their market value. If you want more manna gain, spend the money or crystals to get it.

    The problem is power creep. If there's no guideline to follow, they'll be forced to introduce more and more powerful walkers to boost sales.

    Well...
    They are a business. Supply and demand.
  • moogus
    moogus Posts: 24
    Pqmtg- wrote:
    Fine I'll dumb it down further.

    The suggestion is to reduce and real ancestors mana gain on walkers(that some people paid money for).

    This is a nerf to the Walker.

    Last update Kiora(people paid money for it too) was announced to be nerfed in abilities.

    This is a nerf to Kiora.

    There was a tinykitty storm from people who paid money for Kiora saying she should not be nerfed because that's what they paid for.

    This suggestion also nerfs planeswalkers that people paid for. How it's nerfed is irrelevant. I don't know why you're fixated on that. I never even said it was kiora's mana gains that got nerfed. What's relevant is that the complaint will be the same. People paid money for X. X got nerfed. People mad.

    I never suggested in my post to nerf existing planeswalkers, only to rebalance across the board. If that meant leaving newer ones alone and upping the original, I'd be fine with that. Rebalance does not have to equal nerf. The prevailing issue is the clear move towards power creep. If anyone is so shortsighted as to not believe that causes significant problems down the road, then I don't care much to hear their opinions. If they push much beyond Jace 2.0 at this rate, we will start to see big problems with mana costing.

    I also have no interest going forward in trying to keep up with the power creep. I've seen it before and it's not fun. Some people may not care, but a lot of people will. This also leads to virtual nerfs anyway as the effectivness/value of the planeswalkers people previously bought is lowered compared to the next new hot thing. If they release a new G/U PW, your Kiora is no longer as good. They may have not directly nerfed her, but it will sure feel like it.
  • Xakarath
    Xakarath Posts: 37
    When you think about it, as walkers mana gains continue to power creep, cards from the early sets will continue to get stronger, as newer cards' cost will be adjusted to reflect current mana gains. This absolutely needs to be normalized. +9 total for mono colored walkers, +8 for dual, and when they become a thing +7 for tri-color walkers. If they want to power creep, then power creep their abilities and maybe HP, not mana gains. I love Ob Nixilis, but when Jace 2.0 is better at generating black than he is, we have a problem. Ob Nixilis should be manablack.png +5, manablue.png +2, manared.png +2, manawhite.png +0, managreen.png +0. Both Jaces and Tezzeret should be manablue.png +5, manablack.png +2, manawhite.png +2, managreen.png +0 manared.png +0. Copy for other Mono Walkers.
  • Ryudhyn
    Ryudhyn Posts: 59 Match Maker
    A few people have said "it's okay to have more expensive Planeswalkers be stronger" or the like, but that is exactly the attitude that ruins games like these. If they keep making stronger walkers and charging more for them, then players that can't spend money stop wanting to play;

    And if all the people that can't spend money leave, then everyone has the cool new toys and nobody plays with the old, and pretty soon everybody is bored because the decks are all the same.
  • Pacone
    Pacone Posts: 61
    Not exactly, I am okay with all pws being the same power level, helps with power creep. But IF you charge more for some pws THEN you need to give some added value, otherwise what's the point?

    If not raw power, maybe flashy animations... icon_rolleyes.gif
  • tm00
    tm00 Posts: 155 Tile Toppler
    Ryudhyn wrote:
    A few people have said "it's okay to have more expensive Planeswalkers be stronger" or the like, but that is exactly the attitude that ruins games like these. If they keep making stronger walkers and charging more for them, then players that can't spend money stop wanting to play;

    And if all the people that can't spend money leave, then everyone has the cool new toys and nobody plays with the old, and pretty soon everybody is bored because the decks are all the same.
    but that is not what happens in this game, it is just that the 10 crystal ones are supposed to suck, and even these aren't strictly worse than the others.
    once you ignore these five there isn't that a clear difference in power between the 250, the 550, the 600 and the 950 crystal ones.

    Also +9 ob nixilis is just ridicoulus, please.

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