Berserkers and Defenders pack

Pqmtg-

shteev wrote:

I cannot in all good conscience recommend to a new player that they play with any berserkers or defenders.

I'm not saying it's a good set to buy. Just that you're telling weaker players not to play berserker and defenders at all, and it's just nonsense. And you know that's what people here take umbrage with in your statement. Yet you mislead others further and double down with a explanation that makes no sense. Sure, some cards are no longer good in platinum meta. But even shteev was mortal once. Even shteev once played with suboptimal cards. Not everyone is platinum tier like shteev. Most people are not shteev with a big rare/mythic collection and place high in platinum rankings. Some people don't have grip of desolation. Some haven't even bought a bfz box yet.

I call you a troll because you always come up with **** statements like these, sometimes to brag about your godly collection and other times... Well who knows what motivates you.

I don't defend the dev team as a default position. I defend them when someone like you come along and start an angry mob on half true statements like the one I quoted above.

I know it's hard to believe, but people actually read and believe what you say. You are a top player after all. You're shteev.

Cragger

I'd post a meme about arguing on the internet, but they make it so hard to post pictures in here. You need to know html and stuff. Man, life is hard, you know?

tm00

Iroas has a place in chandra to kill things weakened by the -9 or burn spells without backslash.

Rhox is decent.

I could se nearheath chaplain not being completely terrible, but I'm not sure how, lifelink is nice, as is resisting one turn vs. Big berserker to apply a boost to it.Could get interesting with hope ahainst hope.

maybe you could get some mana back from the ones that aummon scions by pumping them with equipments.

Harvest hand might work too, I guess.

Tbh the interesting thing about the pack is that many rares seem decent, reality smasher, and knight of white orchid are overcosted, drogskol cavalry and kytheon irregulars seem fair for their cost, and the other five seem good.
Mythics are more of a mixed bag, one out of five is world breaker and a good shell for skaab goliah is tricky to build(use it to keep using welcome to the fold and exert influence as removal once you are full?, pair it with incubator drone?)

SoberReality

So...any chance of world breaker being buffed? It might be a decent card to use if they just lowered its cost to like 18 to be fair, and maybe even 15 to be considered worthy of its mythic status. I just hate how its just a glorified conclave naturalists that has one of the highest mana costs in the game. Its cost just doesn't justify its mythic status, nor does its effects.

Typhon

still not enough insensitive for me to actually pay money for one

span_argoman

shteev wrote:

span_argoman wrote:

shteev wrote:

I cannot in all good conscience recommend to a new player that they play with any berserkers or defenders.

I would recommend any new players that read this to ignore the 'advice'. But I don't think the pack is all that useful for new players considering the way it splits across the different sets.

Really? What's the absolute best uncommon defender in Origins? Dwynen's Elite? What about BFZ? Maybe Resolute Blademaster? Good luck playing allies without the good rares. OGW? Birthing Hulk maybe? SOI? Harvest Hand???

Let's move onto berserkers. I've got time. Rhox Maulers are reasonably playable in a low powered starter deck. You can have that one. Don't pretend Iroas' Champion is any good tho. BFZ: Breaker of Armies. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have Grip of Desolation at uncommon. Or maybe a Smite the Monstrous at Common. OGW doesnt seem to have any. SOI: Maybe Breakneck Rider? It's Ok, but it's the same cost as Village Messenger which is better because it has haste, and doesn't throw itself at enemy creatures suicidally.

Hitting your opponent with creatures is a very efficient way to deal damage to them. But planning your deck around a strategy of deliberately engaging in creature combat with berserkers and defenders is a good way to lose. If you MUST play a Berserker, then play Brawler's Plate, and play a good creature with it. Likewise, True-Faith Censer.

I'm quite astounded by your blatant dismissiveness of Berserkers and defenders. But let's focus the talk on the cards. In the end my purpose is for new players to want to experiment on their own and discover the different ways of building viable decks.

I'll be looking at comparisons using the following criteria (developing further on the one you used):
1. Creature against creature: Creatures, Spells and Supports all play their respective roles in a deck. I'll address the comparison with Smite the Monstrous and Grip of Desolation later.
2. Creatures within the same rarity: For obvious reasons.
3. Comparisons for Uncommon and Rare creatures only: Pretty much everyone knows that common creatures suck due to the common tax so they're out of the question. Mythics are in a class of their own. Rares are included because they're still within reasonable reach of new players (with a little bit of luck on the draw) from QB and Event placing rewards.
4. Comparisons between creatures of the same colour or colourless: Because obviously decks of different colours have different needs for their creatures to fulfil. Black has better creature removal, White has various means of life gain, Red can deal direct damage to creatures, etc. Plus if you're building a deck for a certain planeswalker, you can't choose to cross colours and pick a creature from a colour which the planeswalker doesn't belong to.

Berserkers vs Creature Removal Spells
Both Berserkers and Creature Removal spells play the role of well, creature removal. The differences are that removal spells are one-off while Berserkers will recur on creature removal until the berserker is removed or there are no valid targets. As a result of this difference, when there are no valid targets, Berserkers will be dealing damage to the opponent instead while removal spells do not. I see this as a plus point of the Berserker, not as it taking away an opportunity for my creatures to damage the enemy planeswalker. And with Koth's second ability giving Trample, or Haunted Cloak if you use it, you can still deal damage to the enemy planeswalker while clearing their board.

So due to their single-use nature, in a deck of 40 cards you will only get 4 uses of each removal spell. Pack two removals and that's still only 8 uses and only if you can draw into them. Whereas combining Berserkers and removal spells allow you to clear the small and medium-sized ones with Berserkers so you get multiple uses out of them and save the removal spells for the big ones.

Also Berserkers are a hybrid deck slot of creature and creature removal. So for instance, if you feel like 3 slots for creature removal is too many in your particular deck but 2 is too few, slotting in a good Berserker could be a suitable option for a '2.5 slots' of creature removal.

Defenders vs Defender/Reach/Vigilance Imbuing Cards
Now this is a tougher balance. The biggest issue with defender cards is that they are more expensively costed and the developers have openly declared that defence is costed highly and it shows. The problem is they then go and make something like True-Faith Censer which only costs 5 mana and gives a +1/+1 to boot (and another +1/+0 if your first creature's a Human). Or there's Haunted Cloak for 1 mana which gives Haste and Trample too. Or Gideon's first and third abilities which can make any of your good creatures a tough defender. Green has the familiar favourite, Mantle of Webs.

But this comes at the cost of making your defence a combo. Without good draw, this runs the risk of making your defence inconsistent. Of course later on when you start getting better draw boosters this will become less of an issue. However, as a newer player with a limited card pool, you've got to make each card count when they come out. And I experienced this for the longest time while playing mono-Red. There wasn't Tamiyo's Journal, there wasn't Fevered Visions, there wasn't Jori En. Now White takes the prize for weakest draw.

Defenders after all are there to help you take less damage. An inconsistent defence may not be up quickly or often enough to contribute much to damage reduction when you need it. So I'd say there is still value in using defenders as a newer player with limited cards rather than trying to emulate a strong deck using a combination defence while lacking the consistency of executing it coming from good draw.

Red
(Origins-UC) Iroas's Champion: 19 mana, 4/4 Berserker, Double Strike. I don't get why you don't think this card is good. There's so much potential for it to synergise with other cards to become much stronger. The biggest strike against it is that it's expensive but build the deck a little around it and it's easily worth it. The biggest plus of course is the Double Strike. You can read this as saying it deals half its maximum possible damage when attacking creatures or you can read this as it deals double damage when not attacking creatures, somewhat like Graveblade Marauder's ability.

I choose to interpret it in the second manner because this card is one of the more consistently reuseable creature removal cards. You want to clear bigger creatures? Get a helping hand from Embermaw Hellion, Sure Strike, Murderer's Axe, Chitinous Cloak, Mirrorpool, burn spells or burn planeswalker abilities. Nahiri or Koth can boost its attack. For mono-white, so can Origins Gideon. Sure it's vulnerable to creature removal like any other large non-Hexproof creature. But that's a downside for any high cost creature and isn't unique to Iroas's Champion.

Red & Colourless Uncommon creatures to compare with: In terms of what cards are good to put into a deck there's Volcanic Rambler, Reckless Bushwacker, Akoum Stonewaker, Thraben Gargoyle and arguably Mad Prophet or Village Messenger. They're good but the role they fulfil is purely to dish out damage to the opponent. So yes if your objective for that deck slot is purely to deal damage to the opponent then perhaps one of the first four might be more suitable. And even then you need to draw into more copies of those cards to be able to match up in power, and cards are still a resource which requires managing in this game. Your closest viable substitute for a creature that also helps with creature removal imo is Akoum Hellkite which is up one level in rarity.

(Origins-R) Embermaw Hellion: 16 mana, 5/6 Berserker, Trample, +3/+0 to your Red creatures while they're attacking. My personal belief is that Berserker was tagged onto this creature as a disadvantage to make it harder to keep it out for long on the board. Same rationale for Resolute Blademaster and Defender. At least Trample ensures that it will not 'waste' any damage. But Red has no lack of choices for creature removal or burn, and that helps Embermaw Hellion stay in the game for its effect to take place. 16 mana for a potential 14/6 is a pretty good deal. Sure Strike is a good card to keep it alive for recurring creature removal especially since Embermaw has Trample.

(Origins-R) Scab-Clan Berserker: 16 mana, 6/6 Berserker, Haste, Renown 3, opponent takes 3 damage whenever it casts anything other than a creature. Renown 3 to help boost it. Same issue as Rhox Mauler with the Berserker + Renown combination though. You need to clear the board to 'earn' your renown. But stats-wise not a bad card after the cost reduction. Also benefits from Sure Strike.

Red & Colourless Rare creatures to compare with: Desolation Twin, Mina & Denn, Akoum Hellkite, Blight Herder, Jori En, Zada and Scourge Wolf. Again mostly different roles despite them all being viable cards to consider in a deck. Desolation Twin is best for pure damage output, better than even Goldnight Castigator or Mindwrack Demon. Mina & Denn has good stats and converts gems though if you don't like Berserkers you aren't going to like its activate ability. Akoum Hellkite is a legitimate alternative in the same role, so it's the matter of what cards you have and which you prefer to use. Blight Herder requires some building around but once done becomes really good. Jori En is for draw, a totally different role. Zada is a combo creature, but a really good one when properly built around. And Scourge Wolf I admit I have not played around much with but it's probably a nice mid-cost creature to throw out.

Black
(Origins-R) Graveblade Marauder: 15 mana, 4/7 Berserker, Deathtouch, deals 5 extra damage when attacking the opponent. Deals 9 damage against the planeswalker which is a good amount for its cost. Deathtouch ensures it kills any creature it damages while its higher toughness keeps it around for longer. I don't see how it's "worse than other cards IN THE SAME SET OF THE SAME RARITY. Capitals for emphasis. Many, many cards. In the same set."

(SoI-R) Prized Amalgam: 10 mana, 2/2 Defender, comes back when you summon a Zombie. Keeps coming back in a Zombie deck. Solves in its own way the issue of defenders not really being reusable due to damage persisting.

(SoI-R) Diregraf Colossus: 10 mana, 2/2 Defender, +1/+1 per Zombie you control when you summon it, +2/+2 per subsequent zombie you summon. In a zombie deck this creature usually grows at a pretty rapid pace.

Black Rare creatures to compare with: Drana's Chosen, Guul Draz Overseer, Defiant Bloodlord, Despoiler of Souls, and Priest of the Blood Rite. I'm not repeating the colourless ones, they're already accounted for above and the analysis doesn't change much for Black. Priest of the Blood Rite is Desolation Twin Jr. with a touch of Russian roulette, great for damage output. Despoiler of Souls is just pure damage unless you use supports to imbue it with abilities like Vigilance from True-Faith Censer or Berserker from Berserker's Plate. Defiant Bloodlord is a combo creature but a good one for lifegain decks. Guul Draz Overseer got better with the introduction of Corrupted Grafstone but still isn't much to rave about until we get a Green/Black planeswalker. Drana's Chosen works well together with the aforementioned zombie defenders but otherwise just plays the role of pure damage.

Green
(Origins-UC) Rhox Maulers: 11 mana, 4/4 Berserker, Renown 2. Good amount of stats for its mana cost though much better when renowned. Good card for when you're lacking the better Green creatures.

(BFZ-UC) Birthing Hulk: 21 mana, 5/4 Reach, summons 2 1/1 Eldrazi Scions when summoned, Activate 2 to return to full life. The 2/2 Eldrazi Scion makes this a net 15 mana creature. It also enables it to block a minimum of two attacks. If you're able to reinforce it then with the constant board agitation of Green, you should be able to semi-consistently trigger the activate gems to keep it alive for repeated defends.

Green Uncommon creatures to compare with: Plated Crusher, Somberwald Alpha, Sylvan Messenger, Murasa Ranger, and Scythe Leopard. Pure damage, boost to damage, recursion of creatures to deal more damage, self-boosting creature for more damage, and semi-mana-efficient creature. For the other colours I'll say they serve different purposes. But Green has Mantle of Webs. So instead what I'll say is that if you have the draw to be able to consistently draw into the 4 copies of that one card you need to set up your defence then go ahead and slot in Mantle of Webs plus your best creatures. Otherwise, there is room to consider Rhox Maulers or Birthing Hulk.

(Origins-R) Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen: 14 mana, 5/6 Reach, Activate 1 Green to +1/+1 to all your creatures and gain life equal to the number of your creatures controlled. Nifty ability and the cost isn't too much for its stats.

Green Rare creatures to compare with: Beastcaller Savant, Outland Colossus, Mina & Denn, Silverfur Partisan, Deathcap Cultivator, Herald of the Pantheon. Damage + ramp, very good amount of damage, damage + ramp, requires building around but can be pretty strong, damage + ramp, damage + ramp with a side dish of life gain. Once again these cards serve different roles. Aside from Outland Colossus, they also likely aren't the creatures you're planning to use Mantle of Webs on to out-defend Dwynen.


Tl;dr Berserkers and Defenders play hybrid roles of dealing damage plus creature removal and damage mitigation respectively. They are more useful for you when you lack proper draw options to access your stronger specialist cards or to set up combos. Berserkers aren't that much more expensively costed than their counterparts in the same rarity. There are more ways to play this game as a newer player than Shteev claims. Top-tier competition is of course a different issue entirely.

Ythalacuatha

FYI: I am a new player, and I don't have anything close to an elite deck.


I have greatly enjoyed and new cards I got from my berserker defender pack.

All the mythics and I think all five rares made it into my common useage decks.

I don't know if my strategy is elite, but here's what I have been doing on my origins Gideon deck:

Creatures:
Knight of the White Orchid
Iroas's Champion
Archangel of Tithes/Drana's Emissary

Three ramp supports:
Fortified Village
Port Town
Fertile Thicket

Spells
Smite the Monstrous
Scour from Existence

The last two cards change depending battle goals:
Ondu Rising
Hallowed Moonlight
Brawlers Plate
Descend Upon the Sinful

The multiple ramps build up landfall and cascades, so midway through the battle I can often summon even the largest creatures in just one round.

Gideon's increases steadily build up my first strike ability. I've won a battle with one creature before.

In summary, I am a new player, and I have been having a lot of fun with berserkers and defenders.

Jason

Ythalacuatha

I should as:

As a new player, I am still working my way through story mode, so my deck builds are designed to be fast, but strong.
I don't play quick play often.

With this white deck I described, I am knocking out those 15 crystal missions: "Kill 8 enemy creatures"
and also "Lose 8 of your own creatures"

I have used Gideon's first power to change an enemy 3/3 to an enemy 4/4 so I could use "Smite the Monstrous" on it.


Jason