Computing MMR

DC1972

Is MMR based on top 3, all of your characters, or somewhere in between? I know at one point it was the average of your top three levels but when the change was made to take into account covers as well as levels I thought the number of characters taken into account might have changed. Is it different for PVE than PVP?

JVReal

You forgot the most import part of MMR ... CHEMICAL X!

OneLastGambit

I've asked what factors (and how ) decides mmr before. Ideally I'd love to see the equation but...it was a question left unanswered

Quebbster

OneLastGambit wrote:

I've asked what factors (and how ) decides mmr before. Ideally I'd love to see the equation but...it was a question left unanswered

Yeah, no one knows and we are not supposed to ask.

mpqr7

I would love to know this. I have a lot of poorly covered 5*s. I'd love to level them up to around 300 to improve my pve experience, but I don't want it to wreck my pvp experience.

Phumade

They will never tell you the true components of MMR because that's literally the "secret sauce" in how matches are made. And in reality, that information is not necessary to successfully manipulating MMR. They don't change the rules in the middle of the event, so the challenge I pose to you is to think about MMR as a black box.

The inputs that you control are
1. Time of play
2. Duration of play
2a. Time remaining in event
3. Your Score
4. Changing your score up or down
4a. A potential opponents score
4b. The delta between your score and their score
5. Team compostion.
6. Roster Composition.
7. the decision to accept a proposed match or skip

Manipulating and managing those variables is the real essence of pvp mode. Not matching 3 gems of similar color. And before any one argues this is out of the scope of the game, I would remind everyone these are the same issues that every manager and coach of real life team deals with. personnel, salary, team chemistry etc...

I suggest play around with those variables and look to test the edge cases to see how it changes the opponents.

DC1972

Phumade wrote:

They will never tell you the true components of MMR because that's literally the "secret sauce" in how matches are made. And in reality, that information is not necessary to successfully manipulating MMR. They don't change the rules in the middle of the event, so the challenge I pose to you is to think about MMR as a black box.

The inputs that you control are
1. Time of play
2. Duration of play
2a. Time remaining in event
3. Your Score
4. Changing your score up or down
4a. A potential opponents score
4b. The delta between your score and their score
5. Team compostion.
6. Roster Composition.
7. the decision to accept a proposed match or skip

Manipulating and managing those variables is the real essence of pvp mode. Not matching 3 gems of similar color. And before any one argues this is out of the scope of the game, I would remind everyone these are the same issues that every manager and coach of real life team deals with. personnel, salary, team chemistry etc...

I suggest play around with those variables and look to test the edge cases to see how it changes the opponents.

1. controllable
2. controllable
3. controllable except when taking defensive losses
4. impacted by 1 - 3 above
4a. not controllable unless you know they are shielded
4b. same as 4a
5. controllable on offense but not defense since "last strongest team" is part of the secret sauce
6. controllable but unknown what the impact on MMR is
7. controllable but uses up a ton of ISO sometimes.

Phumade

DC1972 wrote:

Phumade wrote:

The inputs that you control are
1. Time of play
2. Duration of play
2a. Time remaining in event
3. Your Score
4. Changing your score up or down
4a. A potential opponents score
4b. The delta between your score and their score
5. Team compostion.
6. Roster Composition.
7. the decision to accept a proposed match or skip

1. controllable
2. controllable
3. controllable except when taking defensive losses
4. impacted by 1 - 3 above
4a. not controllable unless you know they are shielded
4b. same as 4a
5. controllable on offense but not defense since "last strongest team" is part of the secret sauce
6. controllable but unknown what the impact on MMR is
7. controllable but uses up a ton of ISO sometimes.

part of the depth of the game comes from how you manage your defensive losses. Its actually common to see people dump points to get into a lower MMR band to "hide" from certain rosters. I.e. someone gets bored at work, decides to play for an hour, realizes that at 1K they are a sitting target for every 5* in the shard and decides. I better drop to 600 to avoid hits from people I can't retaliate against

re. 4a. There is a spreadsheet stickyed in several LINE rooms that will calculate opponent score based on their point value and also determine potential points based on leaderboard scores. Its all part of the mischief maker's spreadsheet. It may need to be revised based on the MMR changes, but the basic ELO formula is well documented.

For the most part we already know how last strongest team is being calculated. there are several discussions delving deep into this topic. While there is still much research to be done to verify the findings, the community is pretty confident that they can detect any changes in the current formula and how those changes are implemented.

Same with point 6. We have enough community leverage to test across a wide variety of data sets. While no one has done a formal analysis, most people are pretty comfortable with the contours on how your roster affects MMR. While this discussion is primarily oriented to PVP. Your question actually has profound impact on PVE success. This is an area that many people are thinking about.

Feel free to add any other input drivers that might potentially impact MMR, and we can begin to test those edge cases.

Many people forget that almost every tactic invented in the game comes from experimentation and observation.

DC1972

Phumade wrote:

DC1972 wrote:

Phumade wrote:

The inputs that you control are
1. Time of play
2. Duration of play
2a. Time remaining in event
3. Your Score
4. Changing your score up or down
4a. A potential opponents score
4b. The delta between your score and their score
5. Team compostion.
6. Roster Composition.
7. the decision to accept a proposed match or skip

1. controllable
2. controllable
3. controllable except when taking defensive losses
4. impacted by 1 - 3 above
4a. not controllable unless you know they are shielded
4b. same as 4a
5. controllable on offense but not defense since "last strongest team" is part of the secret sauce
6. controllable but unknown what the impact on MMR is
7. controllable but uses up a ton of ISO sometimes.

part of the depth of the game comes from how you manage your defensive losses. Its actually common to see people dump points to get into a lower MMR band to "hide" from certain rosters. I.e. someone gets bored at work, decides to play for an hour, realizes that at 1K they are a sitting target for every 5* in the shard and decides. I better drop to 600 to avoid hits from people I can't retaliate against

re. 4a. There is a spreadsheet stickyed in several LINE rooms that will calculate opponent score based on their point value and also determine potential points based on leaderboard scores. Its all part of the mischief maker's spreadsheet. It may need to be revised based on the MMR changes, but the basic ELO formula is well documented.

For the most part we already know how last strongest team is being calculated. there are several discussions delving deep into this topic. While there is still much research to be done to verify the findings, the community is pretty confident that they can detect any changes in the current formula and how those changes are implemented.

Same with point 6. We have enough community leverage to test across a wide variety of data sets. While no one has done a formal analysis, most people are pretty comfortable with the contours on how your roster affects MMR. While this discussion is primarily oriented to PVP. Your question actually has profound impact on PVE success. This is an area that many people are thinking about.

Feel free to add any other input drivers that might potentially impact MMR, and we can begin to test those edge cases.

Many people forget that almost every tactic invented in the game comes from experimentation and observation.

On 4a, i am familiar with the points spreadsheet. I just meant it's uncontrollable because your target's score can change very quickly unless you know they are shielded and their score is not changing.

Will have to go through the topics again as I did not see the discussion on how last strongest team is determined and how changes in the next team you use would or would not change the last strongest team. I've been spending a lot of time on the boards and if I can't find it how does a player that isn't on the forums or on Line discussing with other players supposed to know?

Phumade

DC1972 wrote:

On 4a, i am familiar with the points spreadsheet. I just meant it's uncontrollable because your target's score can change very quickly unless you know they are shielded and their score is not changing.

Will have to go through the topics again as I did not see the discussion on how last strongest team is determined and how changes in the next team you use would or would not change the last strongest team. I've been spending a lot of time on the boards and if I can't find it how does a player that isn't on the forums or on Line discussing with other players supposed to know?

Historical knowledge on how various alliances and players perform is super important in que selection. Every competition, whether real world or electronic is predicated on one opponent anticipating the moves or plans of another opponent. If you think about a hierarchy of competition. You could say the lowest and widest tier of competition is to hit everything that moves. The next higher tier is based on the idea that one opponent has better knowledge or information than the other. An analogy would be batters studying the pitch tendencies. And maybe the highest and smallest tier is when opponent specifically lays out or creates a scenario where the competion field is actively stacked against an opponent. I.e. When the University of Alabama decides to pay kent state 1.5m to come to bama for just 1 home game.

Every player makes their own decision on which tier of competition they participate in. but it would be a mistake to assume that everyone wants to play at the lowest tier.

Re about game knowledge. Everytime I've bought a pc or console game, the instructions and tutorials have always seemed rather slim. It seems to me that its actually quite common for game companies to expect players to get online to share info. Whenever I prep for a pve event, I almost always go to puzzle quest wikipedia to see how the event was last run.

DC1972

Phumade wrote:

DC1972 wrote:

On 4a, i am familiar with the points spreadsheet. I just meant it's uncontrollable because your target's score can change very quickly unless you know they are shielded and their score is not changing.

Will have to go through the topics again as I did not see the discussion on how last strongest team is determined and how changes in the next team you use would or would not change the last strongest team. I've been spending a lot of time on the boards and if I can't find it how does a player that isn't on the forums or on Line discussing with other players supposed to know?

Historical knowledge on how various alliances and players perform is super important in que selection. Every competition, whether real world or electronic is predicated on one opponent anticipating the moves or plans of another opponent. If you think about a hierarchy of competition. You could say the lowest and widest tier of competition is to hit everything that moves. The next higher tier is based on the idea that one opponent has better knowledge or information than the other. An analogy would be batters studying the pitch tendencies. And maybe the highest and smallest tier is when opponent specifically lays out or creates a scenario where the competion field is actively stacked against an opponent. I.e. When the University of Alabama decides to pay kent state 1.5m to come to bama for just 1 home game.

Every player makes their own decision on which tier of competition they participate in. but it would be a mistake to assume that everyone wants to play at the lowest tier.

Re about game knowledge. Everytime I've bought a pc or console game, the instructions and tutorials have always seemed rather slim. It seems to me that its actually quite common for game companies to expect players to get online to share info. Whenever I prep for a pve event, I almost always go to puzzle quest wikipedia to see how the event was last run.

I remember reading strategy guides for Super Mario to try to find all those illusory mushrooms and have no problem spending time on the forums and wikis reading and sharing info. Last strongest team isn't something that can be easily deciphered. You can't even tell what defensive team you have out if you wanted to test minor tweaks.

JVReal

DC1972 wrote:

I remember reading strategy guides for Super Mario to try to find all those illusory mushrooms and have no problem spending time on the forums and wikis reading and sharing info. Last strongest team isn't something that can be easily deciphered. You can't even tell what defensive team you have out if you wanted to test minor tweaks.

Nintendo Power magazine!

At least with the readily accessible internet, we can get that info for free, using our phones if we're outside of our homes... not really a reason that a regular user on a mobile device, playing a mobile game, can't get this info. (but what if they aren't playing on a mobile device? What if they are playing on Steam? Well then they can open a browser window...) They even started linking to articles in their popups. I seldom click on the links because I'm here pretty regularly (except weekends, I usually just play and spend time with my family and catch up on Monday... during my work break...).

SnowcaTT

I've always considered MMR one of your basic rules of the game. What other game do you get ready to play and it just throws you to the wolves, with no way to know the rule and nowhere to learn the rules?

"Good luck, we're never going to explain what one of the primary rules of this game is! If you get close to figuring it out, we're going to change it and not tell you!"