AI chain-match rate wholly unbalanced

ScubaMD

I've spent entirely too much time on the 'Possessed Skaab' portion of the Story Mode (Origins Chapter One) because every single turn, his single match chains into several, resulting in half (and in many cases, all) of his hand getting max mana.

This is impacting my enjoyment of the game and is ABSOLUTELY preventing me from spending one cent on this. D3 needs to learn that they can make money without cheating. I don't know what has happened at that company, but the original Puzzle Quest games were about fun. MPQ and MtGPQ seem to be about wasting players' time, which is a cardinal sin in game design.

Either A: Institute limits on how much mana the AI receives per turn, especially in early games.
Or B: Provide the same benefits to players - you know, the ones that will actually pay you?

Steeme

The problem is that the AI is "programmed" to make optimal decisions. There are a few glitches where it ignores a 5-swap but I believe this might be intentional for balance as otherwise the player is always at a huge disadvantage.

The goal in this game is to design a deck that can handle the AI's ability to multi-cascade. Unfortunately you can't really do it with the most common cards, so you will either need to buy packs or win them in Quick Battle or in the free packs. Some examples of cards, Prism Array is a very useful support, as it activates when anyone landfalls. Omnath, Locus of Rage is also a very useful card (Mythic though). Then there's Akoum Stonewalker which is marginally useful but much easier to obtain. I used Akoum when I was first starting out because every time the AI got a landfall it gave me a free 3/1 elemental (which stacks) for a turn. This ramped up my offensive damage.

One thing to note, though, is that Quick Battle is much easier than the Story Mode, especially at low levels. Quick Battle becomes tougher only at high levels when players have stuffed their decks with Mythics and the planeswalkers have much more powerful abilities and mana gain. Try using the Quick Battle matches to gain XP and then level up to blow away the story mode.

ScubaMD

Steeme wrote:

One thing to note, though, is that Quick Battle is much easier than the Story Mode, especially at low levels. Quick Battle becomes tougher only at high levels when players have stuffed their decks with Mythics and the planeswalkers have much more powerful abilities and mana gain. Try using the Quick Battle matches to gain XP and then level up to blow away the story mode.

I'm having the opposite experience. I'm being matched with people who have clearly spent a lot of time with the game. 6 straight losses, zero wins - almost entirely due to AI cascade matches (the other part being the fact that the opponents have much better cards). Saying the word 'pay' for a game that I cannot progress in automatically makes this a losing proposition. I've spent money in MPQ, but that's because it proved to be a decent game (at the time; now it's just user-hostile.)

You say that they're programmed to make 'optimal' matches, but the AI should never at any point have any insight into what the next drops are. The process that generates new gems should be entirely separate from the AI thread. This is a common problem in D3 games in general, they give 'clairvoyance' of sorts to the AI, which is clearly not right.

D3 needs to adjust the balance. Non-negotiable.

Mangus 73

ScubaMD wrote:

Steeme wrote:

One thing to note, though, is that Quick Battle is much easier than the Story Mode, especially at low levels. Quick Battle becomes tougher only at high levels when players have stuffed their decks with Mythics and the planeswalkers have much more powerful abilities and mana gain. Try using the Quick Battle matches to gain XP and then level up to blow away the story mode.

I'm having the opposite experience. I'm being matched with people who have clearly spent a lot of time with the game. 6 straight losses, zero wins - almost entirely due to AI cascade matches (the other part being the fact that the opponents have much better cards). Saying the word 'pay' for a game that I cannot progress in automatically makes this a losing proposition. I've spent money in MPQ, but that's because it proved to be a decent game (at the time; now it's just user-hostile.)

You say that they're programmed to make 'optimal' matches, but the AI should never at any point have any insight into what the next drops are. The process that generates new gems should be entirely separate from the AI thread. This is a common problem in D3 games in general, they give 'clairvoyance' of sorts to the AI, which is clearly not right.

D3 needs to adjust the balance. Non-negotiable.

Agreed, you see the computer make a stupid move then a miracle match five drops in. Like it knew it was coming, hmmm. Also if ever a walker needed the nerf bat its koth. His cascades are straight up out of control and once he gets one good board clear in he fills his hand for the next month.

Pqmtg-

ScubaMD wrote:

Steeme wrote:

One thing to note, though, is that Quick Battle is much easier than the Story Mode, especially at low levels. Quick Battle becomes tougher only at high levels when players have stuffed their decks with Mythics and the planeswalkers have much more powerful abilities and mana gain. Try using the Quick Battle matches to gain XP and then level up to blow away the story mode.

I'm having the opposite experience. I'm being matched with people who have clearly spent a lot of time with the game. 6 straight losses, zero wins - almost entirely due to AI cascade matches (the other part being the fact that the opponents have much better cards). Saying the word 'pay' for a game that I cannot progress in automatically makes this a losing proposition. I've spent money in MPQ, but that's because it proved to be a decent game (at the time; now it's just user-hostile.)

You say that they're programmed to make 'optimal' matches, but the AI should never at any point have any insight into what the next drops are. The process that generates new gems should be entirely separate from the AI thread. This is a common problem in D3 games in general, they give 'clairvoyance' of sorts to the AI, which is clearly not right.

D3 needs to adjust the balance. Non-negotiable.

I think I can state with certain confidence that if you're being totally trashed in qb, your losses are probably more due to your lack of experience /ability to play the game properly.

Most people don't need a mythic deck to hit >80% success rate quickly.

Mangus 73

I have over an 80% win rate and how is that relevent to the topic? In the latest event the a.I. seems to be able to generate hand filling cascades at will. This is my experience and many others and it stinks of artificial difficulty.sorry guys needed to vent lol

Konman

Here is My AI cascade issue. I see the board, and before the AI graphics show the swap they make, I predict what it will be, most of the time I am right. Every now and then, I see what is clearly an inferior swap, based on what is visible on the board at the time (not talking about missing a 5 occasionally). I literally say to myself, "that was a stupid swap"...only to see the obviously inferior swap become a chain, a cascade, of hand emptying proportions. Clearly, the AI can see things I can't, has knowledge forbidden to mere mortal players. Yeah, it cheats sometimes because it appears to see what isn't visible, above the field of view, and makes swaps accordingly.

And that's annoying.

Steeme

Just thought I'd pop in with an update here. I know that the AI had been improved somewhat recently as I noticed the AI making certain 5-swaps where it wouldn't before. It still doesn't choose the 5-swap in certain scenarios, but I can tell it is prioritizing destroying the vertical or horizontal line for some other purpose (ie. reset the gems, attempt to trigger more cascades, etc.)

It seems the AI may be a little overtuned now. I've been paying attention to how much mana the AI is able to gain without the aid of any type of mana ramping supports or abilities. I feel like, more often than not, the AI is able to outpace me with an overly significant advantage that seems to draw matches out much longer than before.

Example:
I will make the first match when the game starts. Sometimes I get a nice starting board and I know that I'm lucky. However, more often than not, I will take the 12-15 mana lucky start and then proceed to get completely "outdone" by the AI's counter move, which just seems to come over the top by gaining even more mana than I was able to. This compounds the issue as the AI will just quickly board wipe anything that I have just done on the first turn, as it can already see what cards I have played.

Now, in addition to mana gain comes loyalty gain. The AI's ability to create optimal cascades usually snowballs into unusually swift loyalty gain.

Example:
AI is controlling Liliana.
Player begins to fill 15 cost card. It has 11 mana. Only 3 mana can be achieved this turn. Player looks at the opponent and sees 3 loyalty points only, so there is a very low chance of the card being thrown out the next turn, as it would require a multi-cascade to build the loyalty then an extra swap.
Player makes decision to fill 3 more mana into the card, and it is now 1 mana away from being cast.
AI makes a magical combination, which multi-cascades into a heavenly display of mana gain AND gets a free swap. AI proceeds to throw out Players cards.

I understand that you need to be prepared when the AI is controlling Liliana, and that the planeswalker abilities are used in a glaringly obvious way, but I have noticed only quite recently that due to making more optimal decisions, it is able to build loyalty and use the ability all in the same turn which takes the Player completely by surprise. This doesn't win the game but slows everything down to a crawl.

Another Example:
AI is controlling Ajani.
AI gets a magical combination of glorious proportions and proceeds to fill entire hand with mana.
AI does not play any cards.
The problem with this scenario is that Ajani is sitting on 3 or 4 Swift Reckoning / Smite the Monstrous cards, and will not do anything else about it. The AI sits there until you play a creature, then it just removes it. This is fine if you have chump troops, I suppose, but not every deck synergizes well with low cost troops. In addition, sometimes the AI waits until your troop is more of a threat before removing it (ie. waiting for Noyan Dar to buff once).
In reality, if a player was piloting Ajani, he/she would not sit on that many removal cards because it would take absolutely forever for the match to finish (ie. plop down a lantern scout and let her plink away at the opponents health every turn). In addition, a player would not be able to ramp up that much removal in the early stages of the game. I know that I usually have a tough time filling a single Smite the Monstrous card, I'm lucky if I can get it filled in 2 turns. However, since the AI is able to do so, and has no intention of winning the match in any timely sort of manner, we end up with a long drawn out match that's literally a near-stalemate.


I am in total agreement that the AI should make the most logical choice when playing its turn. However from recent experience, I believe it is overtuned which is snowballing into an unbalance amount of mana and loyalty gain which is causing many more matches to get frustrating. Couple this with certain planeswalkers that can spam abilities to gain even more of an advantage (Koth, Kiora, Nahiri, Liliana, etc.) and you get an increasingly frustrating experience.

nerdstrap

So have you never lucked into a 10+ cascade, extra turn, extra turn, extra turn, extra turn, drop my whole hand and win the match moment? Play the game long enough and you will. Analyze the board before you make the optimal match and watch your win ratio go up. Or, match gems of the opponent's color and deny them mana. Luck and randomness works for both sides.

Pqmtg-

Steeme wrote:

Just thought I'd pop in with an update here. I know that the AI had been improved somewhat recently as I noticed the AI making certain 5-swaps where it wouldn't before. It still doesn't choose the 5-swap in certain scenarios, but I can tell it is prioritizing destroying the vertical or horizontal line for some other purpose (ie. reset the gems, attempt to trigger more cascades, etc.)

It seems the AI may be a little overtuned now. I've been paying attention to how much mana the AI is able to gain without the aid of any type of mana ramping supports or abilities. I feel like, more often than not, the AI is able to outpace me with an overly significant advantage that seems to draw matches out much longer than before.

Example:
I will make the first match when the game starts. Sometimes I get a nice starting board and I know that I'm lucky. However, more often than not, I will take the 12-15 mana lucky start and then proceed to get completely "outdone" by the AI's counter move, which just seems to come over the top by gaining even more mana than I was able to. This compounds the issue as the AI will just quickly board wipe anything that I have just done on the first turn, as it can already see what cards I have played.

Now, in addition to mana gain comes loyalty gain. The AI's ability to create optimal cascades usually snowballs into unusually swift loyalty gain.

Example:
AI is controlling Liliana.
Player begins to fill 15 cost card. It has 11 mana. Only 3 mana can be achieved this turn. Player looks at the opponent and sees 3 loyalty points only, so there is a very low chance of the card being thrown out the next turn, as it would require a multi-cascade to build the loyalty then an extra swap.
Player makes decision to fill 3 more mana into the card, and it is now 1 mana away from being cast.
AI makes a magical combination, which multi-cascades into a heavenly display of mana gain AND gets a free swap. AI proceeds to throw out Players cards.

I understand that you need to be prepared when the AI is controlling Liliana, and that the planeswalker abilities are used in a glaringly obvious way, but I have noticed only quite recently that due to making more optimal decisions, it is able to build loyalty and use the ability all in the same turn which takes the Player completely by surprise. This doesn't win the game but slows everything down to a crawl.

Another Example:
AI is controlling Ajani.
AI gets a magical combination of glorious proportions and proceeds to fill entire hand with mana.
AI does not play any cards.
The problem with this scenario is that Ajani is sitting on 3 or 4 Swift Reckoning / Smite the Monstrous cards, and will not do anything else about it. The AI sits there until you play a creature, then it just removes it. This is fine if you have chump troops, I suppose, but not every deck synergizes well with low cost troops. In addition, sometimes the AI waits until your troop is more of a threat before removing it (ie. waiting for Noyan Dar to buff once).
In reality, if a player was piloting Ajani, he/she would not sit on that many removal cards because it would take absolutely forever for the match to finish (ie. plop down a lantern scout and let her plink away at the opponents health every turn). In addition, a player would not be able to ramp up that much removal in the early stages of the game. I know that I usually have a tough time filling a single Smite the Monstrous card, I'm lucky if I can get it filled in 2 turns. However, since the AI is able to do so, and has no intention of winning the match in any timely sort of manner, we end up with a long drawn out match that's literally a near-stalemate.


I am in total agreement that the AI should make the most logical choice when playing its turn. However from recent experience, I believe it is overtuned which is snowballing into an unbalance amount of mana and loyalty gain which is causing many more matches to get frustrating. Couple this with certain planeswalkers that can spam abilities to gain even more of an advantage (Koth, Kiora, Nahiri, Liliana, etc.) and you get an increasingly frustrating experience.

In general, the better your move is without causing a cascade of exploding gems, the bigger the cascade reply by the AI will be. It's just basic math because you've removed most of the gems in 1-2 colours/variations, leaving huge cascade potential for the AI.

Also, the AI does see unlikely matches that we dismiss as suboptimal. It doesn't have to be future knowledge. It's just more exhaustive in it's search.

Steeme

Pqmtg- wrote:

Also, the AI does see unlikely matches that we dismiss as suboptimal. It doesn't have to be future knowledge. It's just more exhaustive in it's search.

Yes that's the point now. They have improved the AI matching algorithm, and I think it has actually caused an imbalance.

This isn't about future knowledge, or lucky cascades. This is about the matching algorithm. Since it has been improved, I believe it is able to consistently outpace the player (unless the player is capable of analyzing the board with the speed and preciseness of a computer).

My high win rate is likely due to the breadth and depth of my library (I have opened many boxes and packs, in addition to a few direct purchases). I cannot imagine what it would be like for a player without the same selection of cards available. It would seem the OP is expressing frustration as he does not have the same tools at hand.

Pqmtg-

Steeme wrote:

Pqmtg- wrote:

Also, the AI does see unlikely matches that we dismiss as suboptimal. It doesn't have to be future knowledge. It's just more exhaustive in it's search.

Yes that's the point now. They have improved the AI matching algorithm, and I think it has actually caused an imbalance.

This isn't about future knowledge, or lucky cascades. This is about the matching algorithm. Since it has been improved, I believe it is able to consistently outpace the player (unless the player is capable of analyzing the board with the speed and preciseness of a computer).

My high win rate is likely due to the breadth and depth of my library (I have opened many boxes and packs, in addition to a few direct purchases). I cannot imagine what it would be like for a player without the same selection of cards available. It would seem the OP is expressing frustration as he does not have the same tools at hand.

I would like to point out that puzzle quest is in the title of the game as well, not just Magic the gathering. How well you match should be a determining factor on how well you do. I thus have no problem with requiring players to have some level of match 3 skills to advance.

I know people who started days ago on my recommendation. They have no problem playing single player and building up their decks. If you're going to throw yourself off the deep end and enter qb or events with a beginner deck... You can't really complain about the outcome.