What is the definitive answer to 5* MMR?

rkd80

What exactly is the deal here? At which point do 5* throw off your MMR and place you into the infamous queue hell? I heard many conflicting rumors and reports, so wondering if there is an actual agreed upon answer.

Curious if anyone can confirm/deny the following. Assuming a fully developed 4* roster.

1) Leveling any one 5* up to 375 changes nothing.
2) Leveling any one 5* past 400 puts you into a different bracket.
3) Leveling two 4* to 375 changes nothing.

Is 375 some magical barrier or does it depend on number of 5*s leveled? Does it impact PvP? PvE? Both?

Thanks!

tanis3303

I have a fully covered Phoenix at 360, an 11 cover OML at 360 and a 12 cover Surfer at 255...my other 5*s are not worth mentioning, but I do have everyone but Black Bolt. My MMR is fine, and I'm not going to do anything to risk ruining it. Those 5*s will stay at the levels they are at for all eternity or until D3 sorts out the MMR debacle (so...for all eternity)

The Herald

tanis3303 wrote:

I have a fully covered Phoenix at 360, an 11 cover OML at 360 and a 12 cover Surfer at 255...my other 5*s are not worth mentioning, but I do have everyone but Black Bolt. My MMR is fine, and I'm not going to do anything to risk ruining it. Those 5*s will stay at the levels they are at for all eternity or until D3 sorts out the MMR debacle (so...for all eternity)

Or until your MMR scales up your rewards, hopefully October

carrion_pigeons

There isn't a definitive answer because the MMR formula hasn't been made public. And I suspect there are not brackets, per se, either, but you see people in a radius around your MMR.

The reason 375 is tossed around is that MMR seems to count buffed characters and if you have a developed 4* roster them you presumably have buffed 4* champions close to that level anyway, so your 5*s *shouldn't* change anything very much.

This is difficult to test precisely, however, so the reality is you're probably never going to get a straight simple answer.

rkd80

Interesting, so I have a few 4* that when buffed hit 390 - safe to assume that I can take any number of 5* up to that level?

I am concerned that it is additive in which case at some magical point the combined roster puts me up against maxed out 5* and it is game over. Literally.

mohio

I have been running 435 OML and 435 Phoenix for maybe 2 weeks now and while I do get in "q hell" occasionally around 4-600 points, I don't seem to queue anyone with double champed 5* until I'm over 1000 points and can see basically anyone. It always has given me beatable queues, it's just that it cycles between the same 5 or 6 people and 4 or 5 of those are friendly to me and the others aren't worth enough to warrant hitting now for the 3rd time.

The Herald

rkd80 wrote:

Interesting, so I have a few 4* that when buffed hit 390 - safe to assume that I can take any number of 5* up to that level?

I am concerned that it is additive in which case at some magical point the combined roster puts me up against maxed out 5* and it is game over. Literally.

From the discussions I've been following, it's about your top characters and it counts boosts.

I've heard top three characters, but this may have changed last time they tried to soften the impact of 5*s.

If your 5*s are equal to or less than your boosted characters you should have no problems.

But the rotating boosted characters may drop you in it, so roster depth becomes important. (Which makes the system as a whole make sense, because the game is set up to reward roster depth and encourage you to improve everything. Iso8 needs meeting that demand is a seperate issue).

Phumade

carrion pigeons wrote:

The reason 375 is tossed around is that MMR seems to count buffed characters and if you have a developed 4* roster them you presumably have buffed 4* champions close to that level anyway, so your 5*s *shouldn't* change anything very much.

Specifically
375=270 champed 4* + 105 (4* weekly bost) = 375.

Instead of saying 375 is a magic number. Its probably more accurate to say.

The best way to minimize the impact of 5* on your roster is to ensure that your 5* is never more than 100 levels ahead of your MEDIAN or the MODE value of your entire 4* character set. (i.e. median is the avg level value of all your 4*, and the mode ensures that your accounting for the potential to level in waves.

Its been a while since I brushed up on my math, so I'm sure someone else could give you a much more detailed way to break this down.

rkd80

MODE value of your entire 4* character set

Is that really true? As that can in that case seriously throw off the number.

Am I counting my maxed 4* or all of them?

My champed 4* come out to: 284 (13) + 100 for boost = ~384
My total 4* come out to: 188 (30) for boost = ~288

And as I am doing that math I have to wonder why am I skipping over 3*? I have many 3* that are higher than my 4*.

MarvelMan

rkd80 wrote:

Interesting, so I have a few 4* that when buffed hit 390 - safe to assume that I can take any number of 5* up to that level?

I am concerned that it is additive in which case at some magical point the combined roster puts me up against maxed out 5* and it is game over. Literally.

I have had bizarre 5* luck.....my OML is fully covered but my next 5* is SS with 8.....5 are blue. I have several 4* that are at or approach 300 unboosted, so they are above OML when boosted as I left him at 391 (I think thats it, its sub400). I see the occasional champed 5*, but i saw those even when he was at 360. I doubt there is any magic number where you should stop, but do think that having one character, even OML, head and shoulders above the next is a big no no.

SnowcaTT

Here was my experience from 300 to 400:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44648

375 seemed to be great, and once past it the MMR was hell. There was definitely a smaller increase again after 405 and again at 450.

Phumade

rkd80 wrote:

MODE value of your entire 4* character set

Is that really true? As that can in that case seriously throw off the number.

Am I counting my maxed 4* or all of them?

My champed 4* come out to: 284 (13) + 100 for boost = ~384
My total 4* come out to: 188 (30) for boost = ~288

And as I am doing that math I have to wonder why am I skipping over 3*? I have many 3* that are higher than my 4*.

didn't mean to alarm you. we can chat more in detail on line if you have more questions.

But basically all I was trying to say is

If you have 10 chars leveled at 200, and only one at 270. and assume that there are around 8 buff cycles (30 4*/ 4 buffed a week). then you can assume that 7 weeks will reflected

a 10 boosted 4* (to 305lvls) and a unboosted 270,
vs

1 week of 375 4* with the rest of the 200 boosted to 305.

Where you softcap your 5* is highly dependent on how high your 4* got boosted.

Fightmastermpq

Phumade wrote:

carrion pigeons wrote:

The reason 375 is tossed around is that MMR seems to count buffed characters and if you have a developed 4* roster them you presumably have buffed 4* champions close to that level anyway, so your 5*s *shouldn't* change anything very much.

Specifically
375=270 champed 4* + 105 (4* weekly bost) = 375.

Instead of saying 375 is a magic number. Its probably more accurate to say.

The best way to minimize the impact of 5* on your roster is to ensure that your 5* is never more than 100 levels ahead of your MEDIAN or the MODE value of your entire 4* character set. (i.e. median is the avg level value of all your 4*, and the mode ensures that your accounting for the potential to level in waves.

Its been a while since I brushed up on my math, so I'm sure someone else could give you a much more detailed way to break this down.

I think you should be careful with this line of thinking. 5* MMR is like a light switch - once you cross a certain point all you see is other 5* rosters, and there is no going back. I would doubt that point is very dependent on your own roster. If it were you could take your 4*s to level 370 and just bully all the other 4* rosters. I think the 5* MMR switch gets flipped around 360-375 regardless of your roster.

I do agree that the reason the switch happens at this point is because this is the point where boosted 4*s no longer make up the difference in the power gap creating an unfair advantage for 5* rosters.

madok

I have had my fully covered Phoenix and 7 cover OML both at 360 for weeks now. The MMR was decent at that stage. I still saw the oocasional boosted 3* team. I got OML's 8th cover last week and I took him to 375. I did that when I noticed that my boosted 4*s were hitting that level range. I haven't really seen a difference so far.

I won't be pushing them any further though unless I hear different. I really enjoy having the ability to actually use my 4*s and some of my 3*s still.

Pylgrim

Also, if I remember correctly, they said they made it so covers > level for MMR purposes. i.e. if you have a 6-cover 350 5*, it should be adding less weight to your MMR than your max-covered, buffed 4*s.

Vhailorx

Pylgrim wrote:

Also, if I remember correctly, they said they made it so covers > level for MMR purposes. i.e. if you have a 6-cover 350 5*, it should be adding less weight to your MMR than your max-covered, buffed 4*s.

I don't know if they said covers count MORE than levels. It's just that covers didn't count for anything before (the game treated a 5-cover OML @ 300 the same as a 13-cover OML at the same level). MMR now considers the number of covers as well as the level.

TC:

I think the question is unfortunately squishier than any of us would like. When presented as 3 mutually exclusive options, then it does seem like there is a wealth of conflicting info on about MMR.

But I think we can probably discern a general trend: entering the 5* only levels of MMR will give you 5* targets in PVP. But the exact point at which that happens is subject to a lot of variables (e.g. what slice you play in, when you tend to play within an event, the rest of your roster) that account for the incongruity of player anecdotes. Some people notice a difference at 360+, others only at 400+. some people may have experienced the change at 370, but since they went 315 to 400 all at once, they report the change as happening at 400.

I also agree with carrion that the most likely way the MMR system works is an ELO type system where your viable targets are all within a certain radius of your current score (i.e. no hard noob/vet bracketing like we see with PVE event brackets).

Akari

I have SS at 360, and previously had BSS and OML both at 375 (BSS softcapped). My MMR didn't shift any, and I still saw mostly unchamped 5* and boosted 4*. I pulled another OML, took him to 390, and now my BSS is 380 - still no change.

I pulled 1 more OML (more OML covers this month than in the last 4 months... bleh), but from everything I've been told, it seems that 400+ is the critical spot. For now I'm going to softcap at 390 until I get enough covers to go to 435 or something and fully change my MMR to the next bracket. I get hit by 5* rosters occasionally, but not too often.

msp2211

Your current score in each individual event must have some impact on your MMR.

I have a 6 cover OML at level 300, a 6 cover Phoenix at 255, and 5 other 5* at 255. I have no champions 4*. Two are at 229, with about a dozen 4* between 188 and 209.

I made my push to 2k in the season sim and let my free fall begin. I was hit once by one of the big guns from one of the top alliances fielding 3 champ 5*. I have never had even 1 champ 5* appear in any of my queues before, but I somehow showed in their queue. I can only believe it was because I was in the top 20 scores?

rkd80

Looks like the whole MMR concept is fuzzy math at best, but enough anecdotal evidence suggests that a fully developed 4* roster can absorb the leveling of 5* up to 375 and even slightly beyond.

Thanks everyone.