The Problem with Blockers

Upstartes

I read in the Runaway Carriage thread that the devs are concerned about the "meta" of the game with respect to blocking creatures - specifically, that people don't use them much. That got me thinking about why I don't use blockers. Until recently, I have definitely considered blockers an inferior type of creature generally. I'll try to explain why I have that feeling here, so the devs can add it to their thinking about the blocker meta.

My experience with the game is that blockers generally die very quickly. Often on the opponent's very next turn. I believe this is generally due to the fact that a blocker keeps blocking additional creatures until it dies. This is an aspect of the game that I like in some instances - like when I can make a blocker immune to damage. But without that, I find that I would much rather have a creature that is going to stick around that one that will block and then die.

The only blockers that I consider using are ones that are really big. And not just toughness-big, but power-big. A blocker with high toughness but low power is much worse in this game than in paper magic, because of the fact that damage doesn't immediately regenerate in this game. If a blocker doesn't actually kill at least one other creature before it dies, then that feels like a complete and total waste. Creatures are VERY important in this game, and chump blocking just doesn't seem like a good strategy. So, something like Skysnare Spider works - it can frequently kill things and live, or if it does die, it is after it kills something big. But something like Birthing Hulk ends up feeling awful. That four toughness seems to make it a lot weaker, and I find Birthing Hulk not worth its cost for this reason.

Blockers that have a 1 or 2 power, even if their toughness is high also come across as weak, because they are likely to die without killing something else, and without inflicting any damage on my opponent. If they were super cheap, like 3 or 4 mana for a 1/4 blocker, it might be worth it. But spending a few turns building to a blocker that immediately dies with little effect is disappointing.

Another factor in all of this is how much life the planeswalkers have at high levels. Chump blocking makes more sense in paper magic, where you only have 20 life to start with. But when you start with 80, 90, or 100+, paying 10+ mana for a one-turn blocker doesn't seem worthwhile. I can take a few hits while getting my offense together.

So, in thinking about this, it feels to me like the reason people don't use blockers is somewhat built into the structure of the game. I don't have a good suggestion off the top of my head for how to alter that (if that's a goal, which it seems to be) without making significant changes to either the game design or to a lot of the smaller blockers.

That's my 0.02. I offer it not as a complaint, but simply as feedback. Still love the game.

Pqmtg-

Upstartes wrote:

I read in the Runaway Carriage thread that the devs are concerned about the "meta" of the game with respect to blocking creatures - specifically, that people don't use them much. That got me thinking about why I don't use blockers. Until recently, I have definitely considered blockers an inferior type of creature generally. I'll try to explain why I have that feeling here, so the devs can add it to their thinking about the blocker meta.

My experience with the game is that blockers generally die very quickly. Often on the opponent's very next turn. I believe this is generally due to the fact that a blocker keeps blocking additional creatures until it dies. This is an aspect of the game that I like in some instances - like when I can make a blocker immune to damage. But without that, I find that I would much rather have a creature that is going to stick around that one that will block and then die.

The only blockers that I consider using are ones that are really big. And not just toughness-big, but power-big. A blocker with high toughness but low power is much worse in this game than in paper magic, because of the fact that damage doesn't immediately regenerate in this game. If a blocker doesn't actually kill at least one other creature before it dies, then that feels like a complete and total waste. Creatures are VERY important in this game, and chump blocking just doesn't seem like a good strategy. So, something like Skysnare Spider works - it can frequently kill things and live, or if it does die, it is after it kills something big. But something like Birthing Hulk ends up feeling awful. That four toughness seems to make it a lot weaker, and I find Birthing Hulk not worth its cost for this reason.

Blockers that have a 1 or 2 power, even if their toughness is high also come across as weak, because they are likely to die without killing something else, and without inflicting any damage on my opponent. If they were super cheap, like 3 or 4 mana for a 1/4 blocker, it might be worth it. But spending a few turns building to a blocker that immediately dies with little effect is disappointing.

Another factor in all of this is how much life the planeswalkers have at high levels. Chump blocking makes more sense in paper magic, where you only have 20 life to start with. But when you start with 80, 90, or 100+, paying 10+ mana for a one-turn blocker doesn't seem worthwhile. I can take a few hits while getting my offense together.

So, in thinking about this, it feels to me like the reason people don't use blockers is somewhat built into the structure of the game. I don't have a good suggestion off the top of my head for how to alter that (if that's a goal, which it seems to be) without making significant changes to either the game design or to a lot of the smaller blockers.

That's my 0.02. I offer it not as a complaint, but simply as feedback. Still love the game.

I think blockers are a core component of a stable deck, and the devs want more people to consider using them as a part of their deck making decisions.

While I applaud their initiative, runaway carriage is too abusable to a point where blocking is not even the ideal way to remove it.

If getting people to consider blockers is what is desired, then we need to move away from incentising speed and more towards stability. The events have been a good step towards this.

I hope this Runaway carriage nonsense goes away quickly as it's getting silly. Just revamp the way quick battles work and you'll probably get more people playing blockers. Enrage mechanic + points for losing will ensure people play blockers in quick battles very quickly.

shteev

Personally I think the designers of MPQ are falling into the same trap that MTG did in it's early years; just not making creatures as good as spells.

Dwynen costs 14 mana
Skysnare Spider costs 16 mana
Avacyn costs 18 mana

Grip of Desolation costs 5 mana
To the Slaughter costs 5 mana
Anchor to the Aether costs 7 mana

And that's before we get into the gruesomely OP advantage that Engulf the Shores and Crush of Tentacles give you over your opponent's creatures.

majincob

shteev wrote:

Personally I think the designers of MPQ are falling into the same trap that MTG did in it's early years; just not making creatures as good as spells.

Dwynen costs 14 mana
Skysnare Spider costs 16 mana
Avacyn costs 18 mana

Grip of Desolation costs 5 mana
To the Slaughter costs 5 mana
Anchor to the Aether costs 7 mana

And that's before we get into the gruesomely OP advantage that Engulf the Shores and Crush of Tentacles give you over your opponent's creatures.

My best decks nowadays run cheap efficient creatures and spells so I can keep pumping out threats. Actually I'm pretty excited to get Nahiri because her 1st ability really capitalizes on cheap, wide attack strategies.

Plus they made Runaway Chariot...

shteev

majincob wrote:

shteev wrote:

Personally I think the designers of MPQ are falling into the same trap that MTG did in it's early years; just not making creatures as good as spells.

Dwynen costs 14 mana
Skysnare Spider costs 16 mana
Avacyn costs 18 mana

Grip of Desolation costs 5 mana
To the Slaughter costs 5 mana
Anchor to the Aether costs 7 mana

And that's before we get into the gruesomely OP advantage that Engulf the Shores and Crush of Tentacles give you over your opponent's creatures.

My best decks nowadays run cheap efficient creatures and spells so I can keep pumping out threats. Actually I'm pretty excited to get Nahiri because her 1st ability really capitalizes on cheap, wide attack strategies.

Plus they made Runaway Chariot...

You're right, of course... White can field a very cheap and aggressive field of Allies, and Red, which already had fast beatdown creatures like Volcanic Rambler and Akoum Stonewalker, has just gained Devil's Playground and Village Messenger (which, admittedly, is bugged).

So comparing aggressive creatures to 1-to-1 removal spells actually shows them to be reasonably balanced (I'd still argue the point about blue's mass removal, though...)

But defensive creatures are certainly much worse than spells at the moment. They are more expensive than removal spells, and they are far less likely to work, as your opponent has the chance to play his own cards before he attacks into them, and can therefore remove them with his own spells or even just reinforce his own creature to make it larger than your defender. Opening the game with a Defensive creature, even a good card like Dwynen or Felidar Sovereign, is generally a terrible play, because your opponent may just play a larger creature which negates your opening play.


I'm excited to see how the new Zombies work in SoI. A strategy that revolves around Defensive creatures which are easily recurred is something new. It's a shame that Prized Amalgam is plagued by bugs at the moment. Or maybe it's been fixed? Who knows.

melchior

I read this thread some time ago, I experimented to play with more blockers and I agree with above, a lot of "solutions" are expensive.

Blockers need something else to work well. At least that's what I felt from my white or black decks, I don't have much of experience playing with other colors. What exactely is needed, I can't tell for sure, blocker-specific advantages might be needed.

I like to add vigilance to Consul's Lieutenant with Gideon's first ability. A first strike blocker rocks. Giving something to an already blocker is also possible, giving deathtouch to a Catacomb Slug via Gnarlroot Trapper ends up costly and giving it to an other creature is usually single-use and a waste of mana. Just like above, a damage prevention like Enshrouding Mist is very cool.

Unfortunately, I rarely had the occasion to test regeneration, Consecrated by Blood is terribly costly, Gideon's third ability works well. A part of the solution is certainly here, considering how blockers get in first position and become target of the opponent's supports.

Undergrowth Champion is an interesting blocker, it blocks and has something special, unfortunately, it's a mythic one and I have 0 experience WITH it, only against.

Another very interesting effect is with boosts, damages below the value of the boosting effect don't harm the creature after the boost is removed. Most spells (in general) I remember only last until the end of your turn, which means they are of no benefit in a situation of blocking.

Cragger

The problem with blockers is that damage persists.

Blockers should have regenerate.

shteev

Wow, this is an old thread, and I'm *still* waiting for Prized Anagram to be fixed so I can play Zombies.

Xakarath

If Reach, Defender, and Vigilance aren't exactly competitive then they should each come with something extra.

Defender would have mending meaning it heals to full life every turn. However since attacking is mandatory this would likely be busted. Instead allow defender to come with regenerate: 4

Reach instead of regenerating, I would suggest using Reach as a superior First strike. Ability to block ground and flying. Deals damage first. This would make the spiders and archers awesome.

Vigilance's regeneration would activate if there wasn't any other blockers.

Although I believe Defender should actually be the Keyword for unable to attack and vigilance be the Keyword for a creature that attacks but can also block. There is strategic value in a blocker that cannot attack

Ertai Planeswalker

The best solution imho is how it works in paper:

- The defending player gets to assign his defenders to the attacking creatures (or can decide to not have them blok that turn).
- Each defender can only block one creature per combat.

It will slow down gameplay because of extra " targeting" popups for the blocks, but i would gladly accept that if it improves combat. It also makes creatures with defender more worth their higher mana cost compared to removal spells.

Xakarath

Cant go wrong making it more like paper magic