Getting too difficult for mid-tiers?

Unknown

HailMary wrote:

Lyrian wrote:

a change was made where full point deduction on losses north of 500 rating points was no longer occurring. The estimate was that somewhere between 10-15% of point loss reduction was being granted to losing defenders. As a result, more points in the mid-tier range are staying with players, which are inflating their overall scores. Previously, 500 was pretty much the wall that most players could not pass (especially semi-casuals). Now, with the ability to brute force up the ladder past 500, mid-tier players are directly running into the high-tier players.

Thus, the mid-tier game at the moment is now no longer about escaping the zombie horde of the masses, but rather evading the vultures at the top of the mountain for as long as possible before shielding.

Ah, got it. Thanks!

I had a long string of back and forth retaliations and it looks like in the 700 point range with a guy with nearly the same score as I do, and it looks like say he'd hit me for 29 points and I'd lose 25 points, and then I hit him back for 29 points and he lost 25 points, and so on. So we're gaining 4 points each time we beat each other, and I think we never backed off because it's still better than fighting a guy at 500 points for 15 points and then lose 30 points when that guy retaliates. In fact, having a constant retaliation war with someone with similar rating as you is not a bad idea, as this at least prevents any low rating guys from having retaliations on you. At the level I am, I'm pretty certain anybody with a Spiderman will retaliate so even a retaliation war that nets me about 4 points each cycle is still better than losing 25 points overall for attacking a much lower opponent.

Bacon Pants

Phantron wrote:

I suspect the 2*s that do well are probably the guys who somehow have a roster that's just weak enough to not be forced into fighting 141X3s all the time but still slightly above just 3X85. I'm pretty sure there's a certain level range where you're effectively immune from being hit by level 141s, because there are plenty of level 141s that try to tank as well and if it was possible for them to see you, nobody would ever have a chance at 2* to get to the top because as long as a single guy with 141s can see them, those are just going to easy prey for him.

I don't know if there's a clean solution to this other than that I don't see what's the point to continue to have a weak roster while winning covers if you never leveled up your heroes.

This is pretty much what happened to me at the end of my 2 star usage. It also explains why people complain when players with these types of rosters at on the top of leaderboards. Which I've also seen from posts regarding my standing at the time. I was still low enough to be hidden from the big guns and able to place well because most teams were beatable.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

I suspect the 2*s that do well are probably the guys who somehow have a roster that's just weak enough to not be forced into fighting 141X3s all the time but still slightly above just 3X85. I'm pretty sure there's a certain level range where you're effectively immune from being hit by level 141s, because there are plenty of level 141s that try to tank as well and if it was possible for them to see you, nobody would ever have a chance at 2* to get to the top because as long as a single guy with 141s can see them, those are just going to easy prey for him.

I don't know if there's a clean solution to this other than that I don't see what's the point to continue to have a weak roster while winning covers if you never leveled up your heroes.

Bingo! You are dead on-target here.

Back in "the day", the soft cap on PvP rating points (the point where full loss occurs) was 300. When I first started, placing top 15 required less than 500 points a majority of the time. I even remember some events where with a lucky bracket, I could top 5 for under 500.

But then about a month or so ago, the soft cap was raised to 500. With this change, the "sweet spot" for a managed MMR roster was around 600-650. With a good 2** scarecrow (85 Ares, CStorm, OBW), one could scare away the crowd at 500, but not obtain enough points for the 141s to really care about them. In effect, as you mention, a 2** --> 3*** transition team could effectively hide from the 141s at the top of the hill. Achieving the 750-800 points needed for the 141s to care usually didn't happen.

With the new change, this sweet spot is gone. Points inflation will make the top of brackets more competitive, which will in turn raise overall bracket scores in the mid-tier, which in turn now alert the players at the top that juicy 2** morsels are now worth the effort (as 85s are not going to win in retaliation against 141s).

Given power creep and the influx of ISO faster than ever, I would think that within a month's time, 2** --> 3*** transition teams are going to experience a very hard time obtaining top 10 finishes. As more players are able to achieve 1 or 2 141s from raw ISO gain, the gap between those attempting the transition and those already there is only going to increase.

For me, personally, this enabled me to gain a wealth of covers that will eventually allow me to be both competitive and diverse. At the same time, I realize that those days are over and without pushing 1 or 2 covers to 141 ASAP, I'm going to start placing poorly in events rather soon. For those only starting the transition, the cliff may be rather unscalable soon without invoking the pocketbook to obtain covers.

Unknown

I don't really see how 2* can be avoiding the 141s by just having a few points. I don't recall seeing a 3X85 team in months when roster is not limited. Maybe one shows up at the very early part of a bracket but certainly nothing after you're above even 300 points. If I see a guy with 3X85s of course I'll hit him because I'm pretty sure he won't be retaliate and free points is still free points. You can't do anything about people attacking you, so minimizing retaliations is about all you can do and a 3X85 is about as close as it gets for avoiding retaliation. People with 141s must be effectively quarantined against characters who possess no characters higher than a certain level (at least up to 85). Now, sometimes I see people with strong rosters that chooses to use a lower level character. I see OBW all the time, and I saw a Magneto MN + Spiderman. But I'm pretty sure those guys are picked for their synergy, not because 85 is the 3rd highest level character they have.

Unknown

I don't know about 'too difficult', but because of the soft cap others have mentioned, I just don't have the time to get so many points.

Sorry, I really don't want to spend three hours a day or more grinding out tourney/event positions with a match three game. It's not like I have a big roster of high-level 3-star characters and can quickly toss off a few combos, my characters have to work their butts off to eke out wins.

The game is getting too much like work. I log in and play a couple matches, PvE if an event is running, and logout. It gets me like no character progression, though. I think the only cover I've managed to get & upgrade with in the last three weeks was a blue Psylocke, IIRC, out of maybe 15 covers or so. Oh, I got a few two-star covers, but just ones I couldn't use.

Unknown

starsrift wrote:

I don't know about 'too difficult', but because of the soft cap others have mentioned, I just don't have the time to get so many points.

Sorry, I really don't want to spend three hours a day or more grinding out tourney/event positions with a match three game. It's not like I have a big roster of high-level 3-star characters and can quickly toss off a few combos, my characters have to work their butts off to eke out wins.

The game is getting too much like work. I log in and play a couple matches, PvE if an event is running, and logout. It gets me like no character progression, though. I think the only cover I've managed to get & upgrade with in the last three weeks was a blue Psylocke, IIRC, out of maybe 15 covers or so. Oh, I got a few two-star covers, but just ones I couldn't use.

It takes a long time to grind out 900 points even if you've an uber roster, because your opponents are just as strong. Even when you're one round killing their team with some cheese, it still doesn't help much because your guys are getting one round killed at a roughly equal pace to counterbalance your point gains. If anything, the higher you go, the less sensitive your opponents are to your roster strength because once everyone have Spiderman, nobody is ever afraid of anyone else.

I don't know if there's a good way to solve this problem, because if you have some system where you only need to play a few number of games, it'd seem like whoever stayed up at 3am would simply win every single tournament unless games played at 3am somehow didn't count toward your rating. Maybe a nerf to Spiderman will prevent people from taking advantage of being able to play an excessive amount of games where other people are sleeping, but I doubt that'd be enough.

Unknown

Do people from different regions play on separate servers or something?

Otherwise I have no idea how sleeping hours are an issue. If I play in the middle of the night here in EU then all of NA is awake which feels more like a deficit since I suspect they might have more players. When NA sleeps, EU has morning and Asia has evening.

My best guess at a timezone sweet spot would be when either NA or EU afternoon as people are going home from work. Although you just know those teenagers will play every waking hour

Back to the conversation: I'm seeing my 2* rooster get hit by the occasional 100+ rooster, but not yet any 144 teams. But I am finding that the top of the leaderboards have at least 100 points more than they used to. At 600 you used to be able to get top 5, now it won't even get you top 10. But maybe that is just cause my MMR has improved and I've been placed in a "higher division" or something.

Unknown

Milkrain wrote:

Do people from different regions play on separate servers or something?

Otherwise I have no idea how sleeping hours are an issue. If I play in the middle of the night here in EU then all of NA is awake which feels more like a deficit since I suspect they might have more players. When NA sleeps, EU has morning and Asia has evening.

My best guess at a timezone sweet spot would be when either NA or EU afternoon as people are going home from work. Although you just know those teenagers will play every waking hour

Back to the conversation: I'm seeing my 2* rooster get hit by the occasional 100+ rooster, but not yet any 144 teams. But I am finding that the top of the leaderboards have at least 100 points more than they used to. At 600 you used to be able to get top 5, now it won't even get you top 10. But maybe that is just cause my MMR has improved and I've been placed in a "higher division" or something.

Because meaningful progress can only be made if you're not being hit back. The best way to do this is playing when most of your opponents are likely to be asleep.

Being more powerful doesn't make progressing any easier because your opponents are more powerful too.

Moral

Phantron wrote:

Milkrain wrote:

Do people from different regions play on separate servers or something?

Otherwise I have no idea how sleeping hours are an issue. If I play in the middle of the night here in EU then all of NA is awake which feels more like a deficit since I suspect they might have more players. When NA sleeps, EU has morning and Asia has evening.

My best guess at a timezone sweet spot would be when either NA or EU afternoon as people are going home from work. Although you just know those teenagers will play every waking hour

Back to the conversation: I'm seeing my 2* rooster get hit by the occasional 100+ rooster, but not yet any 144 teams. But I am finding that the top of the leaderboards have at least 100 points more than they used to. At 600 you used to be able to get top 5, now it won't even get you top 10. But maybe that is just cause my MMR has improved and I've been placed in a "higher division" or something.

Because meaningful progress can only be made if you're not being hit back. The best way to do this is playing when most of your opponents are likely to be asleep.

Being more powerful doesn't make progressing any easier because your opponents are more powerful too.

Retaliations are the great equalizer. You can climb as high as you want when nobody hits back.

Oddly enough, a few weeks ago it felt like I was part of a MMR loaded with European players. 4am EST on a weekday and I'm getting 4 people retaliating actively.

Shadow

Phantron wrote:

I don't really see how 2* can be avoiding the 141s by just having a few points. I don't recall seeing a 3X85 team in months when roster is not limited. Maybe one shows up at the very early part of a bracket but certainly nothing after you're above even 300 points. If I see a guy with 3X85s of course I'll hit him because I'm pretty sure he won't be retaliate and free points is still free points. You can't do anything about people attacking you, so minimizing retaliations is about all you can do and a 3X85 is about as close as it gets for avoiding retaliation. People with 141s must be effectively quarantined against characters who possess no characters higher than a certain level (at least up to 85). Now, sometimes I see people with strong rosters that chooses to use a lower level character. I see OBW all the time, and I saw a Magneto MN + Spiderman. But I'm pretty sure those guys are picked for their synergy, not because 85 is the 3rd highest level character they have.

I got hit by unwise when my highest card is only lvl 77. I had 700+ pts. So, it is possible for a mid-tier to be bullied by someone much stronger if the mid-tier has too many pts.

Eddiemon

Milkrain wrote:

Back to the conversation: I'm seeing my 2* rooster get hit by the occasional 100+ rooster, but not yet any 144 teams.

**** fighting is a despicable sport and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Unknown

I don't think the points alone make that big of a difference: There's MMR rating in the way. I've had tournaments where I couldn't win one fight due to having too high an MMR: my first three oponents and first 3 skips had major level advantages over my team. When my MMR is low, then I get to fight teams that top at 85, maybe a 110 player. So in some tournaments I get multiple level 3 covers, with a score in the 600s while in others I have trouble getting one, since I face dragons when I am under 100 points.

HailMary

Shadow wrote:

I got hit by unwise when my highest card is only lvl 77. I had 700+ pts. So, it is possible for a mid-tier to be bullied by someone much stronger if the mid-tier has too many pts.

I run L85 AWolv + L77 Thor + L77 OBW, and I've gotten hit by BubbleBoy's 3xL141 team in three different events, multiple times per event (at least 7 times in Fearless Defenders). In FD, I think I got hit by at least 3 SHIELD members.

So yeah, once you hit 700 points, the field dramatically changes, even if you tank pretty well.

Unknown

HailMary wrote:

I run L85 AWolv + L77 Thor + L77 OBW, and I've gotten hit by BubbleBoy's 3xL141 team in three different events, multiple times per event (at least 7 times in Fearless Defenders). In FD, I think I got hit by at least 3 SHIELD members.

No hard feelings I hope. Fish gotta swim, bird's gotta eat. It is unfortunate that you were in my MMR range for so long. If our ratings don't change between events then the chances of us seeing each other are pretty high. I haven't seen you as of late, so it seems that our ways have parted. At least for now.

You are right in your observation though, there is a crossing point every couple hundred points where target availability/diversity changes. It could be due to a smaller number of players across all brackets that are able to progress pat these points.

franckynight

I dont have time to manage my mmr.. As a result i always face top competition.. I take pride in beating any team i m opposed.. Anyway i m not sure of the change u talked in tournies.. Atm in unholy outlaw the top 10 sits around 700 and have rosters around 75-85.. I m the lone with a roster with maxed 3*.. But if i re enter the tourny i took non stop beating by others top players.. I m forced 2 play in the early morning 2 be sure to have a score around 600..

HailMary

BubBLeB0y1977 wrote:

No hard feelings I hope. Fish gotta swim, bird's gotta eat. It is unfortunate that you were in my MMR range for so long. If our ratings don't change between events then the chances of us seeing each other are pretty high. I haven't seen you as of late, so it seems that our ways have parted. At least for now.

You are right in your observation though, there is a crossing point every couple hundred points where target availability/diversity changes. It could be due to a smaller number of players across all brackets that are able to progress pat these points.

Heh, it's all good. Somebody's gotta be on the business end, right? I know all those L60 teams w/ loaner special chars I've been obliterating lately are probably thinking "What in the f---ing f---?!"

I'm more amused that MMR Hell works both ways (MMR Heaven?). While I was getting pummeled by you, I was consistently getting trapped in situations where all three nodes would cycle between 10-12 players total, with the occasional random thrown in maybe once every 15 skips. I imagine that you were probably in a similar situation when my name kept popping up?

Unknown

HailMary wrote:

I'm more amused that MMR Hell works both ways (MMR Heaven?). While I was getting pummeled by you, I was consistently getting trapped in situations where all three nodes would cycle between 10-12 players total, with the occasional random thrown in maybe once every 15 skips. I imagine that you were probably in a similar situation when my name kept popping up?

Indeed you name kept repeating. I did feel a little bad. I have spent several thousand ISO on skips since the bonus/tax was implemented. I feel like the bonus vs the tax balances out, so i just take the blue pill and pretend it's not there. It is frustrating when you skip so many people to avoid hitting the same person just to end up hitting them anyways because they're the optimal target.

Ah well. Back to the grind. Happy gaming!

HailMary

BubBLeB0y1977 wrote:

Indeed you name kept repeating. I did feel a little bad. I have spent several thousand ISO on skips since the bonus/tax was implemented. I feel like the bonus vs the tax balances out, so i just take the blue pill and pretend it's not there. It is frustrating when you skip so many people to avoid hitting the same person just to end up hitting them anyways because they're the optimal target.

Ah well. Back to the grind. Happy gaming!

Only "a little"?!?!

Re: skip tax, the way I figure, a skip is worth it as long as I think the next opponent will be easier, and as long as I come out net Iso-positive, i.e. +30 bonus & min 70 Iso win reward = 10 skips.