Nahiri v. Ajani

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Jazzpha
Jazzpha Posts: 101 Tile Toppler
edited August 2016 in MtGPQ General Discussion
So with the pre-release notes for the next big update this coming week, came the following:

New Planeswalker!

This update brings Nahiri, the Harbinger to Magic: the Gathering - Puzzle Quest! Nahiri is a Red and White Planeswalker, but don’t be fooled - her abilities are very different than what Ajani has to offer.

Stoneforge: Give your creatures +1/+1 (up to +4/+4 at rank 4)

Lithomancy: Discard 1 card, Draw 1 card, Destroy 1 White Gem (Discard 1, Draw 2 and Destroy 3 White Gems at rank 4)

Harbinger: Give a creature you control Haste and Trample until the end of your turn. That creature is also reinforced once (up to 4 times at rank 4) until the end of your turn.

So, I'm trying to figure out what exactly gives Nahiri an edge over Ajani. I think it's ultimately going to rest on how cheap her first ability is at rank 4. Her second and third abilities seem fairly weak, since ability 2 doesn't cycle or destroy that much, and ability 3 is just a weaker, non-Dragon-specific version of Sarkhan's third ability (which can't bypass defenders, unlike Sarkhan's burst, which does).

But even if Nahiri can pay 6 loyalty to boost her creatures by +4/4, how much does that really give her an edge over Ajani if her other two abilities are either good, but mainly a finisher (3), or outright underwhelming (2)?

Since she has access to the same card pool Ajani does, it comes down to mana gain and abilities. Nahiri's second ability could be situationally powerful, but needing to have a card in your hand you don't mind discarding in order to be able to draw two cards without having sacrificed something important diminishes the value a bit. Compared to Ajani's second ability, which is an extra Exquisite Firecraft, and far more consistent.

TL;DR I can see ways in which Nahiri might be powerful, but it seems like she's not more powerful than Ajani to the point of making her a better pick than him for the same color combo.

Thoughts?
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  • majincob
    majincob Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
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    For me it really depends on the madness cards, as it seems she is built to take advantage of. Also her mana bonuses can make or break her.
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
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    majincob wrote:
    For me it really depends on the madness cards, as it seems she is built to take advantage of. Also her mana bonuses can make or break her.
    Yes basically too much is unknown

    - cost of skills
    - mana gains(though is hard to think it will be better than ajani)
    - madness white and red cards she will have access to
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,230 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Jazzpha wrote:
    So with the pre-release notes for the next big update this coming week, came the following:

    Harbinger: Give a creature you control Haste and Trample until the end of your turn. That creature is also reinforced once (up to 4 times at rank 4) until the end of your turn.

    ability 3 is just a weaker, non-Dragon-specific version of Sarkhan's third ability (which can't bypass defenders, unlike Sarkhan's burst, which does).

    Thoughts?

    I don't see how this is a weaker ability. The fact it works with any creature is strictly better. Sarkhan's ability is limited to the, what, 5? dragons in game (his created dragons, Outcast, Avaricious, Tyrant, Hellkite), 3 of which are mythics.

    Second, it has trample, which negates most of the problem with defenders--and if you use it with flyers, then defenders don't bother you at all anyway.

    The third point in its favor is theoretical until we see the card, but the only viable reason for it to bestow haste on a creature (since abilities happen before matching) is to apply it to something in your hand. Thus, dropping, say, a hasty Vryn Wingmare, could get you a 30/25 out of nowhere. I'm actually concerned about that, as it makes it far harder to defend against than Sarkhan's, where you can see the dangers on the board in front of you.
  • Netatron
    Netatron Posts: 147
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    madwren wrote:
    I don't see how this is a weaker ability. The fact it works with any creature is strictly better. Sarkhan's ability is limited to the, what, 5? dragons in game (his created dragons, Outcast, Avaricious, Tyrant, Hellkite), 3 of which are mythics.

    There'll be more in future sets too! I know there's Mirrorwing Dragon in Eldritch Moon at least.
  • alextfish
    alextfish Posts: 192
    edited August 2016
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    madwren wrote:
    The third point in its favor is theoretical until we see the card, but the only viable reason for it to bestow haste on a creature (since abilities happen before matching) is to apply it to something in your hand. Thus, dropping, say, a hasty Vryn Wingmare, could get you a 30/25 out of nowhere. I'm actually concerned about that, as it makes it far harder to defend against than Sarkhan's, where you can see the dangers on the board in front of you.
    I doubt it. That'd need to be phrased pretty unusually, and not the way it's implied by the phrasing quoted.

    I fear the haste is only any use when following a creature cast off a 5-match icon_e_sad.gif

    I'm pretty underwhelmed by Nahiri as described. I do love Gideon 1's pump effects, but only because they come with useful keyword abilities too. For me it'll be all about whether her middle ability is any use. Looting is pretty handy - I like Magmatic Insight - but Jace, Liliana and Kiora all have better card-drawing abilities. And the gem destruction seems uselessly minor, especially as it's your own colour you're destroying.

    Working well with madness cards is all very well, but planeswalkers should really support a number of different kinds of deck...
  • Jazzpha
    Jazzpha Posts: 101 Tile Toppler
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    No, JC said explicitly in a post he made that the Haste effect was there to make sure that the creature definitely attacked, no matter what. It's more of a contingency thing than a value-added thing.

    Being able to apply the Haste to something in your hand before playing it and then reinforcing it would totally break the game.
  • alextfish
    alextfish Posts: 192
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    What baffles me is why they're leading with Nahiri, in a colour combination already present, when I know I'd be much, much more interested in Sorin and the BW deck he'd enable.
  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
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    They had me at "Give Your Creatures +4/+4" as the first ability.

    That's something OG Gideon takes 15 loyalty to accomplish.
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
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    EDHdad wrote:
    They had me at "Give Your Creatures +4/+4" as the first ability.

    That's something OG Gideon takes 15 loyalty to accomplish.
    It could very well be that the dev forgot to add "until the end of turn" in the topic.
    Or that it is not the first skill?

    A permanent buff to all creatures as first skill does not fit at all.
  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
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    It fits if they want to speed up games and/or sell Nahiri for $49.99 upon release.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,230 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Jazzpha wrote:
    No, JC said explicitly in a post he made that the Haste effect was there to make sure that the creature definitely attacked, no matter what. It's more of a contingency thing than a value-added thing.

    Being able to apply the Haste to something in your hand before playing it and then reinforcing it would totally break the game.

    Thanks for clarifying this, it's appreciated.
  • Jazzpha
    Jazzpha Posts: 101 Tile Toppler
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    madwren wrote:
    Jazzpha wrote:
    No, JC said explicitly in a post he made that the Haste effect was there to make sure that the creature definitely attacked, no matter what. It's more of a contingency thing than a value-added thing.

    Being able to apply the Haste to something in your hand before playing it and then reinforcing it would totally break the game.

    Thanks for clarifying this, it's appreciated.

    Not a problem! Happy to help.
  • majincob
    majincob Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
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    Sorin already exists in the game:
    5EsDx3Z.gif

    I like how his abilities are all level 1 at 60. Leaves room to grow right?
  • Jazzpha
    Jazzpha Posts: 101 Tile Toppler
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    majincob wrote:
    Sorin already exists in the game:
    5EsDx3Z.gif

    I like how his abilities are all level 1 at 60. Leaves room to grow right?

    Now that I know more about how the game actually plays than I did back then -- holy **** that's insanity. Shame we can't go back and play that fight more than once!
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
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    Jazzpha wrote:
    majincob wrote:
    Sorin already exists in the game:
    5EsDx3Z.gif

    I like how his abilities are all level 1 at 60. Leaves room to grow right?

    Now that I know more about how the game actually plays than I did back then -- holy **** that's insanity. Shame we can't go back and play that fight more than once!
    To some extent I did play it again(coached a friend of mine).

    It did last like 4 rounds... It is meant to make you feel op as hell
  • majincob
    majincob Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
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    I caught a glimpse of Nahiri and some of the new cards at GenCon. Not sure how much I'm allowed to say about it, but the dual faced cards look awesome.
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,936 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Buffing up all your creatures +4/+4 every turn/other turn for probably relatively cheap loyalty sounds good to me
  • tm00
    tm00 Posts: 155 Tile Toppler
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    I find puzzling that the second ability might cost more than the first, since it feels underpowered unless it costs something like 6 points.

    Meanwhile on a dual color walker the first ability has to cost at least 6, maybe even 9 mana or the arm race to make the new single color planeswalkers not worse than her will be absurd.

    Really curious about the costs, maybe it will be 6,6,12.
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
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    majincob wrote:
    I caught a glimpse of Nahiri and some of the new cards at GenCon. Not sure how much I'm allowed to say about it, but the dual faced cards look awesome.
    Cmon it is not like you got a pre-alpha of some new big AAA game...
    It's a patch/expansion of a mobile game that is gonna release in a couple days... XD
  • Barrelrolla
    Barrelrolla Posts: 289
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    Morphis wrote:
    majincob wrote:
    I caught a glimpse of Nahiri and some of the new cards at GenCon. Not sure how much I'm allowed to say about it, but the dual faced cards look awesome.
    Cmon it is not like you got a pre-alpha of some new big AAA game...
    It's a patch/expansion of a mobile game that is gonna release in a couple days... XD
    Yeah, if they showed it at GenCon I suppose you're allowed to talk about it, unless you signed an NDA icon_e_biggrin.gif

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