Cards requiring rebalance

UrbanNinja

I try not to complain too much about game balance, especially in "pvp" games where I can abuse mechanics on my own to counteract any balance flaws. Since I own a lot of cards in this game, this would usually be the way I go, but some cards are way too powerful at the moment. There was an announcement about Undergrowth Champion earlier on so I guess that it should solve some problems. The recent changes on Disable mechanics also gave some counter-play to several ugly situations. This list is made because I play with the cards below in every single deck I make with corresponding color.

Cards I own:
Prism Array
I think that this card is the worst offender of all. Everything is broken about this one. Low mana cost, draws more card that pretty much any other effect and triggers during opponent's turn. Any ability that starts with "Whenever any player landfalls..." is kinda broken imo.

Shrine of the Forsaken Gods:
Since some players paid real money for this one, I kinda understand why it can be allowed to be so strong. I think it's overpowered because the only other card giving 3 mana per turn is the Sandstone Bridge which costs 3x times as much to cast and is overall horrible. This one is definitely in every single deck I build.

Mirrorpool:
Maybe this one is fine since I do build decks without it. One thing I want to make clear is that the reinforce part is very good, but getting a spell of your choice for free is beyond amazing. Swapping gems for like 10 mana on first turn is nothing out of the ordinary so this allows you to cast pretty much any spell on your very first turn and grants the Mirrorpool a spot in the brokenness hall of fame.

Alhammarret's Archive
Not sure it is actually that powerful, but I use it in every deck I make without Blue. No matter which PW I play, I always want to draw more cards.

Cards I do not own:

Omnath Locust of Rage
This one can be handled, it is not that game breaking, but spawning elementals for your enemy during your own landfalls is a real pain and shuts down most decks based on landfalls.

Drowner of Hope
This one would be ok, but you can have **** combos with like Thopter Spy Network or From Beyond that will disable all opponent's creatures forever.


So I hope these problems can eventually be addressed. At the moment, I can live with pretty much everything else, even UC since I have Prism Array

Jazzpha

I think what keeps prism array actually fairly balanced is the fact that you have a hand size limit, and that it only disables one creature, and only for one turn.

I've had multiple occasions where I've played Jace and had an opponent landfall, filling my hand with cards I don't need and forcing me to lose a potential draw on my next turn.

I will agree though that it's under costed for what it does, but unless it's being run in a ramp kiora deck where you can empty your hand as fast as Prism Array fills it, I don't think it's too bad.

Totally agree with Omnath, though. It isn't impossible to stop, but it can be really, really annoying if it gets rolling.

Pqmtg-

In your example scenario, filling your hands with cards you don't need didn't waste your draw.



You would have got several **** draws on consecutive turns instead if it didn't trigger, so it still benefits you.

Morphis

For cards you listed:

Prism array is op but that is because of the combination of all its aspects:
-low mana cost. In range of a match 3 for most planeswalkers.

- disable effect

- draw three card on any player landfall. This is better against ai.

- not low shield value, 3, average

Too many good aspects in one card.


Mirrorpool, I rarely use the spell aspect.
The creature aspect is already really great.
Do not think overall I can be considered op, but simply at right mythic power level. It is usually op only when it effect works on an op card.

Shrine is definitely op or at the limit of "too good" level. It is not a game changing card though.

Omnath I use in some decks and I can say it s op against ai, but only good(or very good depending on the deck sinergy for it) when played by ai. That when we exclude super chain cascades XD

Drowner of hope: I have not but i see the problem here. Unlike omnath, He is always at least super good, cause of the high mana return and protection provided by the disable and scions.
When your deck can abuse it, is insane.

Alhammaret: I have not it but definitely not op.
The fact that it provides a good benefit tha basically all decks can benefit from, does not make it op. Just a good card to consider in most(if not all) decks.


I would like to add some cards to discussion:

- priest of the blood rite: an early cast of this creature can mean you just lost.
Unlike other early turn troubles this basically only require that you have it in opening hand. 9 mana is too low cost for 11/11 total power.
The drawback can easily be mitigated by matching the black gems, thing that is beneficial to any black deck anyways.

- gaea's revenge: 16/9 is too much. Get this baby out in early turns and it will most likely win the game for you.
If will it ever happen to me to face a mirrorpooled one, I hope my iPhone 6 is "blunt force trauma proof" cause it will fly to the wall

An honorable mention to ruinous path.
While probably not op by itself I think is too good for a control deck.
While controlling you can get power on the field.
If opponent controls also you got 6 damage in and 1 card advantage
destroyed one creature(usually a card) and made him spend one card to destroy it.

shteev

Morphis wrote:

Prism array is op but that is because of the combination of all its aspects:
-low mana cost. In range of a match 3 for most planeswalkers.
- disable effect
- draw three card on any player landfall. This is better against ai.
- not low shield value, 3, average
Too many good aspects in one card.

Agreed. It's the aggregate of all the effects that really push it's power level over the edge. Tellingly, Retreat to Coralhelm, the uncommon version of this card, is a really great card itself... usually, low power versions of rares suck (Lightning Javelin, Seperatist Voidmage).

I don't own Prism Array, but I do use Retreat to Coralhelm regularly.

Morphis wrote:

Shrine is definitely op or at the limit of "too good" level. It is not a game changing card though.

I own a Shrine. I don't know if it's too good; it might be. It definitely shows up all the other straight mana generation cards as being way overcosted. Ally Encampment, Blighted Cataract, Blighted Fen, Blighted Gorge, Blighted Steppe, Blighted Woodland, Hedron Archive, Looming Spires, Mage-Ring Network, Meteorite, Sandstone Bridge, Spawning Bed... these cards are all worthless and could use a serious buff. If you buff up these so they're good, tho, you'd probably have to knock Shrine down a peg or two.

Shrine isn't nearly as abusable by Kiora as other mana generators like Nissa's Pilgrimage or Fertile Growth, so I like the fact that it gives everyone else a chance to be competitive. It's not much use in Koth, either, although Ob Nixilis can get good use out of it.

UrbanNinja wrote:

Alhammarret's Archive
Not sure it is actually that powerful, but I use it in every deck I make without Blue. No matter which PW I play, I always want to draw more cards.

I own an Archive. I disagree about this one... It's clearly powerful, but I find it tough to find a place for it in decks, and I've certainly never been wrecked by an AI playing it in the way that Zendikar's Resurgence or Day's Undoing can be abused.

I ran it in Gideon v Kiora, one time, to keep me in cards, as I played an hour long match which I only won because Kiora Reclaimed or Crush of Tentacled her own creatures on a regular basis. It helped me win that match, but I have a hard time seeing it as OP.

UrbanNinja wrote:

Omnath Locust of Rage
This one can be handled, it is not that game breaking, but spawning elementals for your enemy during your own landfalls is a real pain and shuts down most decks based on landfalls.

Don't own one. I've not had a problem playing against it either, but then, I've never met one being played in a Koth deck. I fear cards like Hangarback Walker, Desolation Twin, or Drowner of Hope more than this guy.

UrbanNinja wrote:

Drowner of Hope
This one would be ok, but you can have **** combos with like Thopter Spy Network or From Beyond that will disable all opponent's creatures forever.

Don't own one. This guy is a major problem, I think. For 17 mana you get an 8/8 which freezes your opponent's team, and 4/4 defender that gives you 12 mana back when it dies. A net cost of 5 mana. That's just silly. There is no dearth, either, of top tier players using cards like Thopter Spy Network, From Beyond, or Part the Waterveil to trigger his disable effect every turn.

This card was obviously designed at a time when you'd only get 3 mana maximum from the stack of scions it creates, and now that EACH scion gives you 3 mana, it's clearly undercosted. There's just no good way of dealing with Drowner which doesn't require using up a hell of a lot of resources. Even bounce effects, usually so good at beating mega-monsters like Hangarback Walker or Undergrowth Champion, will still kill the scions and generate mana.

Morphis wrote:

An honorable mention to ruinous path.
While probably not op by itself I think is too good for a control deck.
While controlling you can get power on the field.
If opponent controls also you got 6 damage in and 1 card advantage
destroyed one creature(usually a card) and made him spend one card to destroy it.

I've got Ruinous Path. It's fantastic, but is it too good? It's really hard for newbies to build a black deck as it is, reliant as black is so often on rares and mythics.

IMO it's not as good as Harbinger of the Tides (I also own this). Dyou think Harbinger of the Tides is too good? Maybe he is, but again, Jace struggles to make a Tier 1 deck at the moment as it is.

Two-for-ones are great, but the top games in PvP these days are often decided by cards which generate far more card advantage than that, like Thopter Spy Network, Day's Undoing, Prism Array, or Zendikar's Resurgence.



Hey, ever notice how all the best cards in the game are either green, blue, or colorless..?

UrbanNinja

I agree with you about the Gaea's Revenge. When mirrorpooled through lucky cascades at turn 2 or 3, it's pretty much over. This card would still be extremely strong without the hexproof. I didn't think of it because fortunately, it is not very common.

Priest of the Blood Rite is quite strong as well, but 11/11 still takes 9 to 12 turns to kill someone. I think it's the only play that ever gets me to lose versus Lilianna.

khurram

shteev wrote:

Hey, ever notice how all the best cards in the game are either green, blue, or colorless..?

I dunno, ruinous path, grip of desolation, transgress, drana the liberator, erebos titan, despoiler of souls, graveblade maurader are all black

Akoum hellkite, tyrant, firebird, embermaw hellion are red

Veteran warleader, lieutenant, serene steward, general tazri, hero of goma fada are white

These are great cards all

fox1342

UC doesn't need a nerf. With direct destroy taking it -1/-1 it can die the turn it's summoned.

Hexus prison warden is the my most feared card. Usually game over when that lands. AT least it's only 1 shield. But so often reinforced it's silly. Only red/green stand a chance against it.

Nightglider1

You have accidentally posted in the Marvel PQ forums instead of the Magic PQ forums. I will have a mod move this to the proper location.

Fitomagic

I think gaias revenge is the most powerfull card and is overpowered should be maximum at 12/8 and has a bug, you can play spells on it, in the real magic game you couldnt

Fitomagic

Twin gianta alao should be 8/8 , 20 damage is too much, but at least you can take it down with destroy spells

Fitomagic

World braker needs urgente reduce cost also

Rogan_Josh

I don't think any of the cards mentioned need re-balancing.

looking at them individually, all the cards mentioned are more powerful than the average for their cost. This is inevitable and unavoidable but certainly not game breaking.

More importantly it's better to assess the relative strength of these cards in the context of their colours. Prism Array for example might seem hugely under costed but considering Blue's rather poor card pool and underwhelming offensive power I think it's a well needed boost.

Another example is Gaea's revenge. On it's own it's a very annoying Above-the-curve creature. But take into consideration green's lack of removal or answers for their opponents annoying cards and greens motive largely becomes an arms race, which fits GR pretty well. it's not impossible to deal with, in fact only Green itself lacks the tools to deal with it.

Tl;Dr Dual coloured PW's are way more of a balance shift than any individual card can be.

paralistalon

The cards that just received buffs, like Gaea's Revenge, I think are fine. They were too weak before. Drowner of Hope did become a little too overpowered after the scion boost. Prism Array is pushing the limits of too powerful as well. Alhamarets Archive is very weak. I don't think I'd ever willingly play it if not to level it up.

shteev

khurram wrote:

shteev wrote:

Hey, ever notice how all the best cards in the game are either green, blue, or colorless..?

I dunno, ruinous path, grip of desolation, transgress, drana the liberator, erebos titan, despoiler of souls, graveblade maurader are all black

Veteran warleader, lieutenant, serene steward, general tazri, hero of goma fada are white

I don't think ANY of these cards are tier 1. They're all worse than Harbinger of the Tides, and I'm not even sure that THAT'S tier 1.

Consul's Lietenant is great, if you're going to win through creature combat, but creature combat is a not a Tier 1 strategy.

Day's Undoing, Zendikar's Resurgence, Prism Array, Thopter Spy Network, Part the Waterveil, Exert Influence, Crush of Tentacles. That's most of my Tier 1. Some of them are expensive, and some of them are vulnerable to support removal... but Kiora can play expenive cards by draining your mana to cast them, and plays a bunch of cheap supports which provide mana and defend more important supports from removal.

To be fair, Starfield of Nyx and Hixus, Prison Warden might well be Tier 1... I dunno, I don't own them.

khurram wrote:

Akoum hellkite, tyrant, firebird, embermaw hellion are red

These lot seem better. They all have abilities which extend beyond combat... even Trample is a relevant ability against a From Beyond. And they are solid damage in a color which can drop them on the table quickly, with a dash of luck. I'd be prepared to accept that these are some of the most powerful cards in the game.

shteev

Oh, that reminds me, Crush of Tentacles! Isn't that crazy powerful? All those effects on that card should probably cost about twice as much mana as it does.

Jace could really use some powerful, untargetted removal which includes a threat like this... but Kiora can just wreck your day with it.

Morphis

Fitomagic wrote:

I think gaias revenge is the most powerfull card and is overpowered should be maximum at 12/8 and has a bug, you can play spells on it, in the real magic game you couldnt

In original magic you AND the opponent can target it, but only with green spells.
Since that would have been to hard to code, just for one card, they decided to give it hexproof.

Hexproof works like this in magic too: you can target it, opponent cannot.

EDHdad

In my opinion, Hixus Prison Warden is oppressive and could use a Nerf.

In Paper Magic, Hixus is a creature, not an enchantment, and he only disables attacking creatures the turn he comes into play.

I think Hixus would probably be fine if he were a creature. Then he would fill a slot on the opponent's board and be susceptible to removal in all colors.

If he's going to remain as a support, I would suggest that green and white at the very least should have more support destroying abilities. In paper Magic, both of these colors are very strong with their ability to cheaply destroy artifacts and enchantments.

Felidar Cub and Caustic Caterpillar, for example,could automatically sacrifice themselves and kill a support, if an enemy support is in play.

madwren

EDHdad wrote:

If he's going to remain as a support, I would suggest that green and white at the very least should have more support destroying abilities. In paper Magic, both of these colors are very strong with their ability to cheaply destroy artifacts and enchantments.

Felidar Cub and Caustic Caterpillar, for example,could automatically sacrifice themselves and kill a support, if an enemy support is in play.

Well said. I think the dev team misses the boat when it comes to translating the color pie. Besides white lacking support removal, black lacks mana generation, and it's pretty noticeable.

I run a lot of support destruction in my decks, so thankfully Hixus doesn't often snare me, but I think that ANY card that locks down an entire board shouldn't exist. I'm looking at you, Hixus and Drowner of Hope. It reminds me of land destruction in paper magic. Eventually they realized that when the opponent couldn't do anything, it hurt the game more than helped it.

Anecdotally, one of the best games I've played was in the recent PvP. I faced a deck that had multiple Hixus supported and buried in the corner. Thankfully, I had Gideon2. I couldn't get rid of Hixus, but by constantly cycling different types of allies, I was able to whittle him down in a long, protracted campaign. Stood and cheered after that one.

Morphis

EDHdad wrote:

In my opinion, Hixus Prison Warden is oppressive and could use a Nerf.

In Paper Magic, Hixus is a creature, not an enchantment, and he only disables attacking creatures the turn he comes into play.

I think Hixus would probably be fine if he were a creature. Then he would fill a slot on the opponent's board and be susceptible to removal in all colors.

If he's going to remain as a support, I would suggest that green and white at the very least should have more support destroying abilities. In paper Magic, both of these colors are very strong with their ability to cheaply destroy artifacts and enchantments.

Felidar Cub and Caustic Caterpillar, for example,could automatically sacrifice themselves and kill a support, if an enemy support is in play.

Think you meant black and white, cause green has two pretty valid support removals.
Black has none to my knowledge instead.

EDHdad

I meant green and white. In Magic, there is a "color pie" and each color has its own strengths and weaknesses.

Supports are mostly the paper Magic equivalent of artifacts and enchantments. Green and white are primary in the ability to destroy artifacts and enchantments.

There might be relief down the pike, because in paper Magic, there is a rare black-white card in Shadows over Innistrad called "Anguished Unmaking" which can exile a non-land permanent (which would include creatures and supports in this game). However, Scour from Existence in paper also exiles any permanent, and in this game was restricted to killing a creature only.

One fundamental difference between this game and paper is the inability to target a specific support for removal. Even if you cast a card like Demolish or Conclave Naturalists, it's still a **** shoot which of your opponent's supports are going to be destroyed. This probably makes it difficult to translate a card like Scour from Existence, because you couldn't target a creature or a specific support for destruction.