pvp event ai koth's cascade too insane?

glggwp

literally every move triggers cascade? i can only say w*t*f...

PapiLouis4

glggwp wrote:

literally every move triggers cascade? i can only say w*t*f...

lol yeah im pretty sure they improved the ai's abilit to match gems since the update, they match 5 gems more frequently. just had a match where the ai made match 5's twice in one turn along with the cascades it brought, wasnt fun

Morphis

Now that losing really matters we will see many more topics "nerf this" "cascades insane/unfair" etc...

NoP event demands to get yourself ready for anything.
For istance in my Koth deck I made some changes and more than once those changes saved my ****.
I even managed to get back from a first turn full hand cascade from opponent with some nasty combo creatures.

It is slower than before and sometimes I end up with some useless cards in hand.
Now consistency is worth much more than speed though.

PapiLouis4

Morphis wrote:

Now that losing really matters we will see many more topics "nerf this" "cascades insane/unfair" etc...

NoP event demands to get yourself ready for anything.
For istance in my Koth deck I made some changes and more than once those changes saved my ****.
I even managed to get back from a first turn full hand cascade from opponent with some nasty combo creatures.

It is slower than before and sometimes I end up with some useless cards in hand.
Now consistency is worth much more than speed though.

yup thats how i have pretty much all my decks atm, i usually win in about 5-7 minutes now instead of like 4ish avg

khurram

I honestly dont think that the AI gets more cascades. For instance i literally got 4 match 5's in my initial turn during a match yesterday. AI's cascade during that match were shorter than mine

PapiLouis4

khurram wrote:

I honestly dont think that the AI gets more cascades. For instance i literally got 4 match 5's in my initial turn during a match yesterday. AI's cascade during that match were shorter than mine

no, i highly doubt they do, but now they correctly make the match 5's (most of the time) instead going for a 4 match landfall

shteev

PapiLouis4 wrote:

The AI ... correctly makes the match 5's (most of the time) instead going for a 4 match landfall

I'll have to watch out for this, I've not noticed anything in particular new yet in 1.5.8. Up until recently I've seen the AI taking a straight match4 over a straight match5. Some of the time when the AI takes a match5 I think it's just because it's detected a match4 and doesn't realise there's an extra gem there.

PapiLouis4

shteev wrote:

PapiLouis4 wrote:

The AI ... correctly makes the match 5's (most of the time) instead going for a 4 match landfall

I'll have to watch out for this, I've not noticed anything in particular new yet in 1.5.8. Up until recently I've seen the AI taking a straight match4 over a straight match5. Some of the time when the AI takes a match5 I think it's just because it's detected a match4 and doesn't realise there's an extra gem there.

nope, ive seen it many times now. when theres the L shaped combination with the corner gem out to the side(if that makes sense lol) it has the ability to make the 5 match or the 4 match landfall, but like ive said ive seen the ai choose the 5 match, a lot actually, just recently. it seems to only go after the match 4 if ittl help it destroy an activatable gem hit an opponents support gem

shteev

PapiLouis4 wrote:

shteev wrote:

PapiLouis4 wrote:

The AI ... correctly makes the match 5's (most of the time) instead going for a 4 match landfall

I'll have to watch out for this, I've not noticed anything in particular new yet in 1.5.8. Up until recently I've seen the AI taking a straight match4 over a straight match5. Some of the time when the AI takes a match5 I think it's just because it's detected a match4 and doesn't realise there's an extra gem there.

nope, ive seen it many times now. when theres the L shaped combination with the corner gem out to the side(if that makes sense lol) it has the ability to make the 5 match or the 4 match landfall, but like ive said ive seen the ai choose the 5 match, a lot actually, just recently. it seems to only go after the match 4 if ittl help it destroy an activatable gem hit an opponents support gem

I've seen inconsistent behaviour from the AI concerning L shaped match5s... sometimes it's taken the match5, and sometimes the match4. I reckon it has something to do with the orientation of the L-shape, but I haven't collected any data on it because I'm always too focused on winning my games It could be the different behaviour is caused by activated gems/supports, as you say.

Morphis

What I have noticed is that the mistake in 5 match is usually associated with horizontal match.
That means that it looks like if there is. Match 5 available, but there is also a match 4 requiring an horizontal swap(while he 5 requires vertical swap) the ai will get the 4 match.
Maybe it has something to do with the code doing a scan of moves ordered by rows first?

Netatron

I just had a Kiora game where I got out her 32/32 octopus on turn 2, it died to removal, then I got out another one around 4 turns later. Sometimes RNG will do that, especially in decks that run gem destruction/conversion.

PapiLouis4

shteev wrote:

PapiLouis4 wrote:

shteev wrote:

PapiLouis4 wrote:

The AI ... correctly makes the match 5's (most of the time) instead going for a 4 match landfall

I'll have to watch out for this, I've not noticed anything in particular new yet in 1.5.8. Up until recently I've seen the AI taking a straight match4 over a straight match5. Some of the time when the AI takes a match5 I think it's just because it's detected a match4 and doesn't realise there's an extra gem there.

nope, ive seen it many times now. when theres the L shaped combination with the corner gem out to the side(if that makes sense lol) it has the ability to make the 5 match or the 4 match landfall, but like ive said ive seen the ai choose the 5 match, a lot actually, just recently. it seems to only go after the match 4 if ittl help it destroy an activatable gem hit an opponents support gem

I've seen inconsistent behaviour from the AI concerning L shaped match5s... sometimes it's taken the match5, and sometimes the match4. I reckon it has something to do with the orientation of the L-shape, but I haven't collected any data on it because I'm always too focused on winning my games It could be the different behaviour is caused by activated gems/supports, as you say.

yup just played a few more story matches and the ai didnt make the match 5....i have no idea what theyre thinking lol.

as for them making the match based on vertical or horizontal matches, that might be the case. I thought that might be it before, but i havent really payed much attention or tried to remember how it made the matches lol

Morphis

Also no matter how you build the deck.
If the game decides you are gonna lose, you can do nothing.

Opponent turn 1 omnath
Turn 2 spawn 4 elementals through chain cascade + cast third creature(do not remember which one)
I stalled some but even if I fetched 2 times creatures(to ensure spell draw) I got no exert or bounce

Sinslayer5

^That is true. Sometimes, the AI just gets a TON of momentum that you can't do much about...

Morphis wrote:

NoP event demands to get yourself ready for anything.
For instance in my Koth deck I made some changes and more than once those changes saved my ****. I even managed to get back from a first turn full hand cascade from opponent with some nasty combo creatures.

It is slower than before and sometimes I end up with some useless cards in hand.
Now consistency is worth much more than speed though.

This is also very true. The PVP encourages play closer in style to Limited formats, where it's necessary to consider all angles and cover any potential threats. Cards for support destruction, disable/bounce, and hard removal should all be considered much more closely for every deck; including at least 2 of the 3 types is not a bad idea.

Morphis

being this my first real pvp event, I realized a couple things playing these days

- kiora in indeed op. Now we all know this but the problem is that she is op cause of first skill. AI uses always the higher skill available each turn.
This means that it can waste some first skill and never save for other skills. That makes it easier for us usually.
Kiora first skill is almost never a waste.
When you add just a couple op cards(exert-undergrowth-harbinger etc...) the chance it will own you are high.

- nissa and Garruck are at BIG disadvantage, Having only one removal(at rather high cost).
If something unexpected happens in the first couple turns and you have not scour in starting hand... You have basically lost. If I had great aurora I would play it as "single target situational removal" only because of this.

I lost twice so far in this event, both times against kiora and both times with green deck(Garruck)

Next pvp event I will play kiora as green and use a Jace or tezz full control with thopters.

PapiLouis4

Morphis wrote:

being this my first real pvp event, I realized a couple things playing these days

- kiora in indeed op. Now we all know this but the problem is that she is op cause of first skill. AI uses always the higher skill available each turn.
This means that it can waste some first skill and never save for other skills. That makes it easier for us usually.
Kiora first skill is almost never a waste.
When you add just a couple op cards(exert-undergrowth-harbinger etc...) the chance it will own you are high.

- nissa and Garruck are at BIG disadvantage, Having only one removal(at rather high cost).
If something unexpected happens in the first couple turns and you have not scour in starting hand... You have basically lost. If I had great aurora I would play it as "single target situational removal" only because of this.

I lost twice so far in this event, both times against kiora and both times with green deck(Garruck)

Next pvp event I will play kiora as green and use a Jace or tezz full control with thopters.

this is exactly what i did, i knew jace was slower, but had way more guaranteed success rate over my nissa, which is also quite strong

PapiLouis4

Morphis wrote:

Also no matter how you build the deck.
If the game decides you are gonna lose, you can do nothing.

Opponent turn 1 omnath
Turn 2 spawn 4 elementals through chain cascade + cast third creature(do not remember which one)
I stalled some but even if I fetched 2 times creatures(to ensure spell draw) I got no exert or bounce

man i feel your pain, just battled a garruck in NoP. his first turn he makes a match 5, that leads into idk how many cascades. ends up clearing his entire hand, putting a mirrorpooled hangerback walker on the board, summons his 8/8 wolf and like 5 thopters....in 1 turn lol. then he cascades again and creates more thopters, and another 8/8 wolf etc
needless to say i lost in 3 turns lmao

Netatron

I've been thinking about it, and maybe Koth's ability to make cascades isn't any stronger than it should be. Dialing back how much mana he gains from red matches by a point or two might make him much more in line with other 250 Planeswalkers.

PapiLouis4

Netatron wrote:

I've been thinking about it, and maybe Koth's ability to make cascades isn't any stronger than it should be. Dialing back how much mana he gains from red matches by a point or two might make him much more in line with other 250 Planeswalkers.

i dont know, he currently gets +7 mana gains which is in line with some other 250 planeswalkers when u factor in the -1 he gets from blue and white. if they drop his red match bonus by 1, i think its be fair, but more than that and i think hed have to much of a hard time generating any mana.

one thing i think they can do to adjust his power level a bit is either make his 3rd ability cost more, or decrease the amount of destroyed gems of his first ability by 1 or 2....iunno

AlexBrisingr

Koth's mana gain cuts both ways. Most planeswalkers, when maxed, get a bit extra from at least 2 colors. He gets red only, and loses out on white and blue. I think it all evens out, because if you can't find a red match, you're floundering.

The mana gain is about the same. Only difference is, his big gain on red means you can quickly fill some spells for an emergency moment, or cast it before Liliana can make you discard it. Each planeswalker has their main gimmick. This is Koths.

His final ability is strong, I grant, but it is the most expensive final ability I've seen (none are more expensive, anyway), and it can often be a flop. Half the time I'll get some decent boosts to my characters. Other half, you'll have: green and red mana cards that destroy the 10 Toughness support the ability creates, wasting the use; my creatures are all killed before I can boost them, or removed by blue spells; or the game just has no red mana show up. Without a red match, the support is useless. Honestly, the ability is a major gamble most of the time, and it's no more powerful in the long run than Ob Nixilis. Only 18 to use, and when maxed, it does 8 damage to your opponent for each card drawn by anyone. And he has a 3 ability to draw 2 cards.

As for the increased cascades, they're becoming ridiculous. One game I had Omnath played by the opponent, and next round, enough landfalls to create a 30/30 elemental. Everything I played was destroyed before summoning sickness was even gone. Another game, the AI played THREE Nissa's Renewals in a single turn, then played 2 Gaea's Revenges. I mean, come on. Recover 90 health and then bring out two of those? Come on. I've even seen a round with Kiora where she used her ultimate ability on the first round. Tons of cascades, then an extra swap, brought out her Octopi, and stomped all over me.

Hell, one time the opponents cascade lasted so long, after it was still going for 10 seconds, I put my phone down and get to the fridge to get a drink. When I got back, it was STILL GOING.

That's ridiculous.

Netatron

PapiLouis4 wrote:

Netatron wrote:

I've been thinking about it, and maybe Koth's ability to make cascades isn't any stronger than it should be. Dialing back how much mana he gains from red matches by a point or two might make him much more in line with other 250 Planeswalkers.

i dont know, he currently gets +7 mana gains which is in line with some other 250 planeswalkers when u factor in the -1 he gets from blue and white. if they drop his red match bonus by 1, i think its be fair, but more than that and i think hed have to much of a hard time generating any mana.

one thing i think they can do to adjust his power level a bit is either make his 3rd ability cost more, or decrease the amount of destroyed gems of his first ability by 1 or 2....iunno

Adding up their mana gain numbers tells you how much mana you can expect to make from a random match. But matches aren't random, you and usually the AI will be aiming to get your best colors when you can. So with an available on color match on the board, Koth makes twice as much mana as many other planeswalkers. Sure, the board will run out of red gems, but then his first skill will counteract that and often gain enough loyalty to use it again next turn.