Mr. Negative (Martin Li)

GundamY

Mr. Negative (Martin Li)



Since you guys know how much I love support characters (they don't get enough love, especially from the villain's side), I designed Mr. Negative with all the crime boss characters in mind: Gorgon's Countdown tiles, Kingpin's utilization of Countdown tiles, Green Goblin's Fortified tiles, The Hood's AP gain etc.

If you guys think it's interesting, let me know what needs to be improved or what's already fantastic.

Darkforce Dimension (Passive) - 0 AP : The negative energies transform Martin and his surroundings with exotic dark matter. Whenever Mr. Negative's Countdown tiles finish without interruption, he gains 1 Blue AP.

Level 2: Mr. Negative gains 1 Blue AP and 1 Red AP for each completed friendly Countdown tile.

Level 3: Mr. Negative gains 2 Blue AP and 2 Red AP for each completed friendly Countdown tile.

Level 4: All friendly Countdown Tiles that finish without interruption give 2 Blue AP and 2 Red AP per tile.

Level 5: Enemy Countdown Tiles tiles stolen by Mr. Negative will automatically become Fortified Countdown tiles.

Corruptive Touch - 14 AP : Everyone Mr. Negative touches becomes his mind slaves. Steal 1 enemy Countdown tile. The stolen Countdown tile's effects benefit Mr. Negative and his team. The stolen Countdown tiles also denies enemies from their individual benefits.

To clarify how this ability works, here are a few examples:

Beast and his special tile creation with "Mutagenic Breakthrough" (friendly special tiles are made)

Colossus damage reduction with "Immovable Object" (Mr. Negative and allies take less damage)

Star-Lord's AP cost reduction with "Everybody With Me"

Mystique's AP theft with "Shapeshift" (Mystique still in shapeshifted form)

Red Hulk's tile destruction with "Seeing Red" (destroyed tiles damage the enemy)

Deadpool's damage dealing with "Countdown For What" (enemies matching will damage them instead)

Scarlet Witch's purple tile generator with "Arcane Incantation" (still makes purple tiles)

X-Force Wolverine's "Recovery" Countdown tile will not heal Wolverine if stolen by Mr. Negative

Jean Grey (Phoenix) can't revive with "From the Ashes" if stolen by Mr. Negative

Level 2: Mr. Negative can steal up to 2 enemy Countdown Tiles.

Level 3: Mr. Negative can steal up to 3 enemy Countdown Tiles.

Level 4: Mr. Negative can steal up to 4 enemy Countdown Tiles.

Level 5: Mr. Negative can steal Fortified Countdown Tiles.

Inner Demons - 12 AP : Mr. Negative summons his henchmen to do the dirty work on his behalf. Create a 4-turn Countdown tile. The Countdown tile deals 300 damage. (Passive): If Mr. Negative's about to be downed, sacrifice 4 friendly Countdown tiles on the board.

Level 2: Create two 4-turns Countdown tiles. Each Countdown tile deals 600 damage. (Passive): If Mr. Negative's about to be downed, sacrifice 4 friendly Countdown tiles on the board.

Level 3: Create three 4-turns Countdown tiles. Each Countdown tile deals 900 damage. (Passive): If Mr. Negative's about to be downed, sacrifice 3 friendly Countdown tiles on the board.

Level 4: Create four 4-turns Countdown tiles. Each Countdown tile deals 1200 damage. (Passive): If Mr. Negative's about to be downed, sacrifice 2 friendly Countdown tiles on the board and end the enemy's turn.

Level 5: Create five 4-turns Countdown tiles. Each Countdown tile deals 1500 damage. (Passive): If Mr. Negative's about to be downed, sacrifice 1 friendly Countdown tile on the board and end the enemy's turn.

So who does Mr. Negative synergize well with in a battle? Here's a few that I can think of:
Hawkeye (Modern), Loki, Kingpin, Ant-Man for their friendly Countdown tiles; Sam Wilson (Captain America) and The Hood for reducing the turns needed for Countdown tiles; and anybody else who needs to feed on blue and red AP like Cyclops (classic), Captain America, or Iron Man.

LuciferianX

Gaining AP on completion of a CDT is fine, except when you pair him with goons, in which case he is now unstoppable, so I'd have to say "no" under the current RAW. He'll be instantly over powered. Seriously.

Second, absolutely not on his blue. The Devs already established that stealing CDTs is a huge coding PIA, and too unpredictable. What sounds interesting on paper just can't be executed elegantly.

Third, so as long as there's a CDT on the board, he's immortal?

No, no, hell no, tiny kitty no, no. No. Absolutely not, under no circumstances. What are you thinking? No.

So, my response to this is: No.

GundamY

LuciferianX wrote:

Gaining AP on completion of a CDT is fine, except when you pair him with goons, in which case he is now unstoppable, so I'd have to say "no" under the current RAW. He'll be instantly over powered. Seriously.

Second, absolutely not on his blue. The Devs already established that stealing CDTs is a huge coding PIA, and too unpredictable. What sounds interesting on paper just can't be executed elegantly.

Third, so as long as there's a CDT on the board, he's immortal?

No, no, hell no, tiny kitty no, no. No. Absolutely not, under no circumstances. What are you thinking? No.

So, my response to this is: No.

Okay, since you completely reject this concept of Mr. Negative, do you have any idea what power best reflects his personality? Because so far, I was thinking of how he could turn Countdown tiles into Locked tiles, but that's Bagman's power (and we know how much he sucks).

Or better yet, what if he starts off as Martin Li (like the 5 Star Bruce Banner), and if he collects enough black AP, he transforms into Mr. Negative and changes his powerset?

The only theme I can see Mr. Negative doing is that he's the one character that can turn the tables when given enough opportunities. Like if people spam healing, he's make them damage themselves instead. If people spam Strike tiles, he'll turn those tiles against them. If people spam AP battery, he'll drain them instead. In other words, Mr. Negative is practically doing the opposite of what the opponent wants in the first place.

Listen, I know you're experienced in game balance, but all I could do is offer some speculations (and I know how much I suck at game balance). That's why I'm asking you: what can Mr. Negative do that will complement other crime bosses like Kingpin or The Hood? AP coverage? Team synergy?

JamesV

Conceptually I don't think there's anything wrong with his power set. I think it's just the balance that's out of whack.

For example:

Inner Demons: Make the passive closer to R&G's power. "If Mr. Negative would take more than X% damage, destroy all of Mr. Negative's Inner Demon tiles. Gain X life for each countdown destroyed." (True Healing)

Dark Force Dimension: Why not make it a passive countdown like SW's but that when it resolves gain 2 Red and 1 Black or 2 Blue and 1 Black AP.
Cover 1: 1 3-Turn countdown.
Cover 2: 1 2-Turn Countdown.
Cover 3: 1 2-Turn Countdown, 1 3-Turn Countdown
Cover 4: 2 2-Turn Countdown
Cover 5: 2 2-Turn Countdown, 1 3-Turn Countdown


Moved original suggested Dark Force Dimension to spoiler tag:

Dark force Dimension: Slow it all down, IMO:
1 Cover: 1 Blue AP for Mr. Negative Tiles.
2 Cover: 1 Blue or 1 Red AP for Mr. Negative Tiles.
3 Covers: 2 Blue or 1 Red or 1 Black AP for Mr. Negative Tiles.
4 Covers: 2 Blue, 2 Red or 1 Black AP for Mr. Negative Tiles.
5 Covers: 2 Blue, 2 Red or 2 Black AP for Mr. Negative Tiles.

Corruptive Touch: This is the complicated one, especially because of what devs have said in the past.
I would structure it more like a reverse to Jean's Purple + green. Have it deal some damage (not as much as hers). Have it convert X number of enemy countdown tiles into attack tiles. (The corruption is gnawing at them via tiny fists).
Scale the number of X tiles based on number of covers.

ronin_san

I don't know the character enough to judge. The abilities sound fun and yet loose in description. What does "about to die"mean, and what % of health triggers that.

ErikPeter

I don't know the character, but I'm not a fan of the powerset.

Darkforce Dimension is pretty decent and goes very well with Kingpin, IM40, XPool (if his CDs resolve), etc. A recurring passive CD like Switch's might be generally stronger, but less synergistic.

Corruptive Touch is problematic. Stealing enemy CDs is a giant mess of rules interaction that the devs wisely removed from the game (Granted, it was fun to make Moonstone steal a Detonate and then die.) Ignoring that fact, it suffers the same way Control Shift did: in a given fight, it either blows or is crazy broken. Usually it's too expensive, but also completely trivializes some battles. Especially PvE, as Goon battles are usually about dealing with the countdowns--stealing 4 in a typical level 300 fight would be bonkers. Beyond that, I don't think it fits your stated goals of supporting existing characters. If you really want it to affect enemy CDs instead of your own, I'd do something like converting them into attack tiles like suggested above. Still swingy as hell (and overall less useful that JG's cancellation) but not too far gone.

Inner Demons is interesting, but again, swingy; he'd be pretty tough early in fights (a very effective tank) when you can ensure there is always a CD out. Late in fights, when he's the last man standing, less so since you'd need to create them with red or blue. I think overall the passive would end up being kind of useless, even at max rank. Sure, it'd be strong in PvE with assist from cheap CDs like Falcon/Switch or even Vision/Torch. But mostly it's a 12 AP power that does reasonable damage with CDs.

All told he's... definitely into Countdowns. Besides the CDs from Red (and Blue) generating more Red and Blue AP, there's no real internal synergy; Darkforce has strong synergy with CD users, clearly--6 Red/Blue from each of IM40's Recharge tiles is nutty--but that's about all he has going for him.

I'd design toward something more like this (Level up benefits in parentheses):

Darkforce Dimension 9 AP
Create 1 (to 5) random 3-turn CD tiles that each generate 1 Red and 1 Black AP.
(Passive) At the start of your turn, if there are more friendly Countdown tiles than enemy Countdown tiles on the board, gain 1 AP for each color represented by friendly Countdown tiles. (Note: Max 1 AP of each color).

Corruptive Touch 8 AP
Creates a Black 3-turn Countdown tile that Stuns a random target for 2 (to 4) turns.
(Passive) At the start of your turn, create a Strength weak (to moderate) Attack tile for each stunned enemy.

Inner Demons 9 AP
Create 1 (to 3) Inner Demons Countdown tiles. After 4 turns, these tiles deal moderate damage and relocate.
(Passive) At the end of your turn, if fewer than 2 (to 3) friendly Countdown tiles exist, create 2 (to 3) Inner Demons Countdown tiles.

LuciferianX

I don't know who Mr Negative "is," or why he's interesting. When I do builds and game design, I base that design squarely off of a solid touchpoint that I can reference as my basis. In terms of conceptual point costs, we know the following is generally true in the meta:

Charging powers stop at 7, and most are yellow.
Theft powers run either blue or purple, and in turn thieves have the lowest HP overall (as always, there has to be an exception just to make it interesting, and that's Blade, who attacks on black with no drawback and leaves a rolling stealing CDT).

Your Dark Dimension is interesting, but (yep, "but"), it's grossly overpowered in circumstances that we can't replicate, that is, goons. A different concept? That a completed CDT activates separate passive that isn't AP gain. Say, if an opponent completes a CDT, Mr Negative gains HP (Burst Heal). If one of his team completes a CDT, he deals damage. Simple, maybe too simple, but it doesn't exist anywhere else.

Corruptive Touch. No.

I don't like his third power because we already have it, so this feels like Copy/Paste. You want him to have minions? Why does he have minions? What do his minions do? Just "minions" is already done. If you wanted to amplify this as a new Doctor Doom and he deploys attack tiles? Or he converts enemy tiles into charge tiles on a passive? Those would be different.

Your root concept is "not fun." I realize that you may not agree or understand why I'm so passionately against this, but you're asking my opinion on three levels:

* As a professional game designer. I know what works and can explain why.
* As a player of this game. I don't want to agree to things I'll have to face that have no reasonable counter, especially in the third version of the meta where things are being developed to be focused, and other things are built as natural counters (and maintain utility outside of that single trick).
* As a fan of the source material. I know when I'm speaking on a character I'm familiar with, and when I'm only going on the powers. Here, I'm going purely off the powers you listed, and they were not well balanced.

Your end concept, "the total opposite of what you want" is gen one, and not part of the current meta. He can steal tiles, he can convert things, he can add time to CDTs, he can change the color of CDTs, he can reduce the damage vs CDTs (which would make him invaluable with Quake and against goons).

But when you post terrible ideas, yes, I'm going to call them terrible. That's exactly why you're asking my opinion. Not so I can be nice, but to help you get better.

awef

Hm, the criticism in this thread is pretty spicy... That mechanic of "mind controlling" enemy countdowns had also crossed my mind. I was going to make a kit for Purple Man, revolving around that mechanic. But apparently, it's taboo, so I'm going to scrap Purple Man. No rework of this kit?

LuciferianX

A mind control that could work, and give you the CDT tiles within certain parameters, would be:

12 Viral Bind. Purple Man confuses his target, issuing commands to his opponent. Any active power is paid for by the cost of this power, and is used as though activated by Purple Man. Only powers eligible for Team Ups may be activated this way.

So you can use Repulsor Punch and drain your red battery, and make Hulkbuster punch himself in the head. Or Jean nuke her team, or Logan fire Surgical Strike or pop Wade's CDFW. That would be an elegant way to run it that isn't game breaking. It also means that the power is useful so long as you have an opponent that's got a usable power.

awef

That's a good idea, but I think it's annoying to have to also spend your resources. Potentially spending a lot of AP. However, on the other hand, if the player spends the enemies AP, the player wins in two ways: dealing damage and destroying enemy AP. Maybe if leveling "Viral Bind" reduced the AP cost of the stolen ability. Then there's adding functionality to actually select the enemy ability.

LuciferianX

Spending another player's AP doesn't work; not because it isn't logical, but moreover because it would be game breaking. I Viral Bind your Black Bolt, and empty all your AP and kill you with your own dude. That would be not fun. Like, not fun on a level that I can't begin to explain without going into invective.

You can steal, you can drain, but you can't use my AP and kill me with it. Consider also that in the example I posted, it functions like a team-up, a mechanic we have in place. The concept is to force a character on your opponents side to team up with you for that round, so if it's Deadpool, you activate CDFW, those tiles are now in your control and you spent only the 12 purple, which replaces your teamup AP. Simple, functional, doesn't break the meta.

If you have a scenario where you steal Repulsor Punch, AND consume all of your opponents red, that's Epic level, and even then it would be phone-throwing frustration if it happened to you.

awef

Darkforce Empowerment – 10 AP: Darkforce energy grants Mister Negative a degree of superhuman strength and durability. Select a tile to create a Black 3-turn Countdown tile. While this tile is on the board, Mister Negative deals and blocks an extra 64 base damage and 12 damage for each Black tile on the board.
Level Upgrades:
Level 2: Deals and blocks an extra 77 base damage and 13 damage for each Black tile on the board.
Level 3: Deals and blocks an extra 90 base damage and 15 damage for each Black tile on the board.
Level 4: Deals and blocks an extra 115 base damage and 17 damage for each Black tile on the board.
Level 5: Deals and blocks an extra 167 base damage and 22 damage for each Black tile on the board.

At Max Level:
Level 3: Deals and blocks an extra 280 base damage and 74 damage for each Black tile on the board.
Level 4: Deals and blocks an extra 360 base damage and 86 damage for each Black tile on the board.
Level 5: Deals and blocks an extra 520 base damage and 110 damage for each Black tile on the board.

Corruptive Touch - 11 AP: Mister Negative's touch can change the personalities of his enemies. When used, Mister Negative influences the next tile match of the enemy team by making the move for them and ends their turn. Mister Negative is able to match black tiles for the enemy.
Level Upgrades:
Level 2: Can match blue tiles.
Level 3: Can match red and purple tiles.
Level 4: Can match green and yellow tiles.
Level 5: Can match team-up tiles.

Inner Demons (Passive): Mister Negative's darkforce empowered guards follow him wherever he goes. At the start of your turn, if you have at least 8 Red AP, create one Red 1-turn Countdown tile that activates every turn, dealing 50 damage and converting the color of a random surrounding tile to black or blue. Inner Demons tiles are removed if Mister Negative is downed.
Level Upgrades:
Level 2: Deals 69 damage.
Level 3: Countdown tile cap raised to 2.
Level 4: Deals 110 damage.
Level 5: Countdown tile cap raised to 3.

At Max Level:
Level 3: Countdown tile cap raised to 2.
Level 4: Deals 343 damage.
Level 5: Countdown tile cap raised to 3.


So, I totally bummed off your design of Mr. Negative. Made him less of a support. The Black Countdown might give too much. I think that "Corruptive Touch" can be useful to give yourself an advantage when used at the right time. It's similar to "Deadly Precision" where the player needs to be creative to get maximum effect. Realized that red AP would probably be used as damage, ie. HB, and Falcap. So a passive and a soft requirement. Then I tacked on your "Dark Dimension" passive. Removed the AP gain, since too much feast or famine. The countdown finishing and gain AP is too much win for the player. Anyways, I think that the black tiles spreading from his Inner Demons is a good way to portray him corrupting the board. "Inner Demons" should behave like "Squirrels, Squirrels, Squirrels". Damage in unison, rather than separate like multiple "Flame Jets". Triple tapping the "Darkforce Empowerment" would be too strong.

*Forgot to mention, I came up w/ "Corruptive Touch" after looking at Spider-Woman's purple. Three trap tiles isn't really effective, but if you can have more control, it'd definitely make it much more useful.