the scale of the iso problem

Keegan

dsds wrote:

Carnage is an example. It could be hulkbuster, jean grey, you name it. The specific character doesn't matter in this argument.

I think the specific character matters greatly in this argument, and indeed is the point. There is a mountain of difference between "I just pulled my 14th Jean Grey cover, I'd like to do something with her" versus "I just pulled my 14th Mr. Fantastic cover, I'd like to do something with him" as far as in-game resource investments go. The two four stars are simply not equal, and there's little point for in investing iso in characters with little utility. That's Calnexin's point, I think it's a pretty good one, myself.

broll

I submitted a suggestion that I think would fix this: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=47672

I doubt it will be acted on, but I think this could improve a lot of things in the game, even beyond the ISO issue.

OneLastGambit

simonsez wrote:

Calnexin wrote:

"Need" is a pretty strong term. You should probably replace all instances of that word with "desire". Outside your own preference, there is no need to collect and champ every character. That mentality is what leads many to burn out.

No, that's the mentality that games like this are targeting in the first place. If not for tapping into people's obsessive compulsive tendencies, games like this wouldn't even exist. There's nothing inherently "fun" about sliding tiles around.

Tetris, columns and Dr robotniks mean bean machine beg to differ

OneLastGambit

I agree with OP there's more iso needed past the 3* tier and even champing 3* is tiring. Repeated 4* champing IS what causes burn out.

The devs tried to solve the issue of what to do with extra covers and *further* incentivised grinding at the same time.


The solution is to introduce more iso, they could double the current amount and it is still only about 30% of my iso requirement...yes I'll use the word requirement if the devs are insisting we collect everyone then they should not be hollow trophies gathering dust.

The ROI on levelling 4* is horrifying past level 200 as well BUT champ rewards are far better BUT you'll hardly see them as covers Are a bit more rare.

Solution...

Double all current in game iso

Create a brand new iso only pve and PvP in which the grand prize is 75k iso...oh and make it a progression only competition with increasing difficulty (sounds almost perfectly suited to those darn tests we've been doing)

Increase the iso amounts in the store - $100 to add 30% to a single 4* is some of the most woeful value for money ever. Mutiply the amount you get by 10 and then it starts sounding worth it.

amarrero

Polares wrote:

Let's see. Characters I already have with 13 covers I want to max

High priority
PH, Punisher, Quake, Peggy (450k+400k+400k+350k=1.6M)
I will need at least two or most probably three months to level those

Who's PH again?

jojeda654

amarrero wrote:

Who's PH again?

Professor Hex?

My real guess is Phoenix.

rkd80

Interesting discussion on the philosophy of needs vs. want, however there is one undeniable fact in all of this, the game's original ISO spigot has never expanded to adjust for the significant increase in ISO demand. Perhaps that was D3's long term strategy all along, sucker us in with 3* and then eventually roll out amazing characters that will create an artificial shortage.

If that was the intended plan then they are geniuses.

If that was not the intended plan and indeed the increased ISO from alliance dailies, DDQ, double iso events suggests they are acknowledging the problem, then they are not keeping up with the flow.

My only complaint is that all the implementations so far are linear and do not take into account needs/veterans whatsoever. It takes a new player now a faster time to level his 2/3* then it took us a year ago. Perhaps that is fine considering that we still dominate with our 4* reference but total time spent on achieving the same goal is shorter for newcomers and that is a bit unjust.

A simple/elegant and rather easy solution is to create an ISO multiplier for every single ISO stash awarded that takes into account three factors.

1) Existing max covered characters that are maxed (loyalty)
2) Existing non-maxed characters (buy roster slots)
3) Days played (encourage loyalty)

Use a formula, create a multiplier that weighs those 3 between 1 - 5. So if you get 500 iso from a PVE node, the reward will be 500 iso * your multiplier = final reward. Mid-ranking vet with a multiplier of 3.6 will now get 1700 iso instead.

How hard is that really?

dsds

Keegan wrote:

dsds wrote:

Carnage is an example. It could be hulkbuster, jean grey, you name it. The specific character doesn't matter in this argument.

I think the specific character matters greatly in this argument, and indeed is the point. There is a mountain of difference between "I just pulled my 14th Jean Grey cover, I'd like to do something with her" versus "I just pulled my 14th Mr. Fantastic cover, I'd like to do something with him" as far as in-game resource investments go. The two four stars are simply not equal, and there's little point for in investing iso in characters with little utility. That's Calnexin's point, I think it's a pretty good one, myself.

But that's not the point. The point is that it could be a hulk buster or a jean grey he got a cover for and need to max. It doesn't change a thing. He would still only be able to get 1/3 the iso requirements that are needed to max and champ the character even if he spent $100. He would still have a high chance of having to sell the extra cover.

Also say, that there are five characters that you find are very good but you don't have them max covered. What do you do? Do you wait until you get a cover of them before using any of your stockpiled iso. That would be a pretty dumb scenario where you are just waiting and waiting for the covers for what could be 6 months to a year to get due to rng. So in that period of time, you can't progress in terms of leveling because you are saving the iso for those characters? Also don't forget rng is mean and while you are conserving your iso for your top 5, it sucks that you will have to sell 30 covers of 4thor (extreme case of course) because your rng loves her. Does that seem absurd?

If it were me, I would use the iso while I am still interested in the game. How would I know what happens six months down the road, I may quit by that that time due to all these broken things in the game.

SnowcaTT

4*'s are almost equal in number to 3*'s (they will soon surpass them)

You can easily max two 3*'s a season.

Two 4*'s are released a season.

If ISO isn't changed, new players will never be able to keep even much less keep up.

::

You should be able to -EASILY- max two 4*'s a season.

This can be done with more ISO, or it can be done with cheaper leveling costs.

Corollary:

I have previously promised d3 I'll change my sig when significant ISO is added to the game. The 70 instead of 20 in PVE, the extra in DDQ vault, the doubling of daily drop from alliance share....these are a start, but they are not making a dent in the problem.

ClydeFrog76

revskip wrote:

The game is fun but could use more than just the two play modes currently available.

It needs a complete overhaul in every conceivable way possible imo. Everything other than new characters is recycled; even "special" events like Civil War are just re-skins of previous ones.

It's such a **** shame as the Marvel IP has SO much potential for a game like this but it's just being wasted.

veny

ISO costs are completely fine - its natural that game evolves, comes from weak charcter to strong ones to provide challenge and fun for older players, and long-term goals for new players.
BUT game itself:
- Doesnt provide enough sufficient methods of getting ISO. DDQ is the best way - at least 4000ISO per day, done in less than 30 minutes. PvE require a bit more efforts, but offers adequate, but limited ISO reward. PvP is strongly limited by amount of defeatable (is this a word? ) opponents. Player with decent roster can get up to 20 000 (my estimation, didnt count all possible sources) ISO per day. Of course, it takes hours to reach this number, but its possible. With 350 000 to max out one 4* cover its damn hard work.
- Has ISO economy based on game state of year 2013 - Buying ISO is nice, but ISO value for money remains unchanged. What was enough to max out a best cover in game now gives few levels to 4*s or 5*s.
- Actually punishes you for upgrading multiple covers of same quality - instead of championing all my 3*s (i usually use 10 of them) i should have upgraded some 4*s or even 5*s - they would be much helpful in both PvEs and PvPs without worrying about their fate.

All those issues are showing that game evolves, but ISO economy remains almost intact.
There are some preventive measures how to solve this - % bonus to all ISO gains based on your game age (1% ISO from all sources per day logged - why not?), offline feaures allowing you to use dozens of your (mostly unused) covers, loyality features, daily reward changes... blah, blah... dozens of features were suggested, but nah... we got team-up revamp!

Obviously, lack of ISO and hundred of useless covers is something, that annoys only us. DEVs have what they need - HPs from buying rosters, money from VIP, ISO purchases, people waste money to get valuable CPs, because with all-mighty 5*s, you can annihilate everything - i know what i am talking about - OML at 255 is my most frequently used cover. Sure, he doesnt fit for every situation, but compared to maxed 3*s, hes awesome (and i didnt spend a single ISO to make him even more OP).

hodayathink

Partyof5 wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

Iso distribution rates may be ok for the 3* tier and below, but they are comically pathetic at the 4* and 5* tiers.

They're not ok for 3* tier either. I have multiple 3*s at 13 covers that I cannot level due to a shortage of ISO. I have gotten a number of 3* covers that end up being sold because I can't champ them fast enough.

The bigger problem is that I'll never catch up to all the 4* and 5* characters that are being released.

You can earn enough to level a 3* in the time it takes for that 3* cover to expire without having to play 8 hours a day in the process. If you don't have enough ISO to level your 3*, it's because you're leveling something else instead, or you haven't been leveling them at all and are trying to jump each one from 40 to 166.

babinro

sinnerjfl wrote:

The worst thing about leveling a 4* is that after a specific level, you get way less benefits from leveling them if you look at the actual gains you do get (damage, match damage, HP) vs the ISO required which goes way up towards the end.

From 200 to 270, its roughly 241,000 ISO. And you don't get much "power" out of those levels...

I actually point to this as a positive thing since it allows players to get the most out of the character with well under half the total leveling costs worth of ISO. It's surprisingly free to play friendly. The incentive to go from 200 to 270 isn't so much the increase in strength from levels gained as much as the championing rewards and ability to respec the character.

I wish 4* championing worked the same way as 4* leveling. Those first 20 champion covers should skyrocket the power of those characters with the remaining champion covers just gradually increasing health and providing better champion rewards. This way, 4* champions could competitively stand against 5*'s in a timely manor.

Vhailorx

babinro wrote:

sinnerjfl wrote:

The worst thing about leveling a 4* is that after a specific level, you get way less benefits from leveling them if you look at the actual gains you do get (damage, match damage, HP) vs the ISO required which goes way up towards the end.

From 200 to 270, its roughly 241,000 ISO. And you don't get much "power" out of those levels...

I actually point to this as a positive thing since it allows players to get the most out of the character with well under half the total leveling costs worth of ISO. It's surprisingly free to play friendly. The incentive to go from 200 to 270 isn't so much the increase in strength from levels gained as much as the championing rewards and ability to respec the character.

I wish 4* championing worked the same way as 4* leveling. Those first 20 champion covers should skyrocket the power of those characters with the remaining champion covers just gradually increasing health and providing better champion rewards. This way, 4* champions could competitively stand against 5*'s in a timely manor.

Pre-champion system, I would have agreed with you. I ran a 5/5/3 IMHB at level 202 for about 6 months because the marginal cost of the last 68 levels didn't seem worth the iso. I also only leveled the truly good 3*s to 160+, leaving everyone else around 120 until/unless i found some reason to raise them up for a particular event. In that fashion, I was able to stay iso positive throughout my 3* and early 4* transition.

But the champion system changed everything. Not only are the champion rewards (and respec'ing) among the most compelling rewards in the game, they are also the only way to stay with the meta. 4* champs, in particular, have become an almost essential feature of high level PVP play. Try to take on a boosted champ Rulk this week without a boosted 4* champ of your own or a few, very select 3* and 4* teams.

Accordingly, I no longer agree that the bulk of leveling value is achieved in the first 100-140 levels. I would argue that the most significant chunk of leveling value is now buried behind a mountain of iso at Champion level 0 or 1. Iso leveling costs haven't changed since spring 2015, and iso distribution rate hasn't really gone up very much over the same time either. But complaints about the iso shortage really picked up in January 2016 (i.e. when the champion system went live) because the value of max'ing characters went up very significantly. so much so that it's very very hard to compete without champions.

Razer51

Eliminating 20 iso rewards was a tiny step forward. Increasing the daily reward bonus helped a little, but other than that the ISO rewards have not changed very much in the last two years. I have 15 fully covered 3 star chars and a couple of 10 covered 4 stars that I cannot level. I play daily and score top 25-50 in every PVP and the progression of my characters is no where NEAR fast enough to even hope to keep up with the rediculous rate at which we see new 4star toons implemented. Do we really need 2x 4's a month? (Hell no). ISO drop rates need to change.

OneLastGambit

veny wrote:

ISO costs are completely fine - its natural that game evolves, comes from weak charcter to strong ones to provide challenge and fun for older players, and long-term goals for new players.
BUT game itself:
- Doesnt provide enough sufficient methods of getting ISO. DDQ is the best way - at least 4000ISO per day, done in less than 30 minutes. PvE require a bit more efforts, but offers adequate, but limited ISO reward. PvP is strongly limited by amount of defeatable (is this a word? ) opponents. Player with decent roster can get up to 20 000 (my estimation, didnt count all possible sources) ISO per day. Of course, it takes hours to reach this number, but its possible. With 350 000 to max out one 4* cover its damn hard work.
- Has ISO economy based on game state of year 2013 - Buying ISO is nice, but ISO value for money remains unchanged. What was enough to max out a best cover in game now gives few levels to 4*s or 5*s.
- Actually punishes you for upgrading multiple covers of same quality - instead of championing all my 3*s (i usually use 10 of them) i should have upgraded some 4*s or even 5*s - they would be much helpful in both PvEs and PvPs without worrying about their fate.

All those issues are showing that game evolves, but ISO economy remains almost intact.
There are some preventive measures how to solve this - % bonus to all ISO gains based on your game age (1% ISO from all sources per day logged - why not?), offline feaures allowing you to use dozens of your (mostly unused) covers, loyality features, daily reward changes... blah, blah... dozens of features were suggested, but nah... we got team-up revamp!

Obviously, lack of ISO and hundred of useless covers is something, that annoys only us. DEVs have what they need - HPs from buying rosters, money from VIP, ISO purchases, people waste money to get valuable CPs, because with all-mighty 5*s, you can annihilate everything - i know what i am talking about - OML at 255 is my most frequently used cover. Sure, he doesnt fit for every situation, but compared to maxed 3*s, hes awesome (and i didnt spend a single ISO to make him even more OP).

Actually the best source of iso is pve...10k per day (not including sub placement) surpasses any other method...it is However the most time intensive.

mikepro

I am in complete agreement with OP here. I have 12 4* that are either fully covered at 13/13 or missing 1 cover and that's only 2 of them. So to bring then all up to Atleast lvl 250 I need about 2 million iso. And that still leaves me plenty of characters to work on. Howard,moon,Kate, war, and a few other 4* that are no where near champ levels at all. Plus there is the a lure of re champing 2* and building up more 3*. I've been at the game for over 475 days. Yes not as long as sone but I refuse to drop $119.99 Canadian on 78k iso. I could earn that in 1 week of play for hard core grinding but I have a full time job plus 3 kids. So I'm not dropping 120 on iso. And with 2-4* coming out a month plus any other 5* that come out the most covers I have is 5 covers on 2 different 5* and they are not 1 of each 3 colours it's 4/0/1 and 2/3/0 covers. Yes I'd love more iso. Make the vip a double iso for the month and watch d3 rake in the subscriptions for the 28 days each month.

Pongie

I haven't done the math, but I believe if they removed all the iso from the 7x node rewards and simply award iso based on the points earned then that would be a good first step. Hopefully the number of iso will be higher, and the number of times people need to clear the nodes if they simply want the remaiing non-iso rewards will be much lower.

edit: OneLastGambit, mentioned pve sub is about 10k per day. You can normally grind to 30,000 points per sub. This would essentially triple the amount of iso earned. Those only doing 3x clears per sub would end up around 10k without having to clear all nodes to green ticks.

WelcomeDeath

So....to level the characters I have coverd now I'd need 11,110,355 iso. In terms of purchasing Iso, thats about $14,350 worth of iso. Agree with OP, not so much with thise that say you dont need iso to level everything now. Even if i spent that and caught up and could cover max all the 4* being released, id barely have time to gather enough iso to level them before another is released. Theres just not enough. Its not about needing iso to level all now. Its about having enough to slowly but surely close the gap, rather than widening it indefinitely. Btw, at 100 iso per pvp match thats 111,104 matches. At 5 mins apiece thatd take 385.5 days of nonstop gameplay to collect. Seriously, its time. Double the iso permanently. Make the double iso events 4x the current rate instead.

jredd

you might have a lot of characters that need iso. i do too. pick the one that will benefit you most and put your iso into them. then move on to the next.

it's not like you need to have every character maxed right now.

if iso were easy to come by, everyone would have the same roster.