Nissa and Gideon first skill cost

Morphis

So at the moment nissa and Gideon first skills are the only 2 left at 9 loyalty. All other planeswalkers first skills cost 6 at most.
With the current state of the game, is this really needed?

Nissa first skill does a lot of things:
- heal 3
- gain 3 and convert 3 gems to green
- draw a card

Good deal you would say...?
Not "that" much in my opinion.

- First of it all healing for 3does not matter that much when hp are usually in the hundreds or near it.
If you want to heal there are cards better suited for it in green. Healing for three can be seen only as an "added benefit" of the skill. So this has little to no value IMO.

- gain mana and convert gems. Now this is usually what you are using this skill for. Three mana is not so much, not bad either.
Three gem conversion is good but random. When you already set up some supports to change colors and add this skill, the value is good.
If you do not the chances it will make an impact worth the investment are rather low.

- draw card. Good if you need it. Usually is not what you are after and if it is usually the gain in mana(unless your hand is empty when you use it) is wasted on other things. So if you are lookin for that removal or mantle of webs of whatever and you get it, it will most likely be not charged by the skill.

When you add all three good aspects the cost is justified but not all three effect are usually needed together and most likely not all the "good results" will happen together.
So bringing it back to 6 could happen.
Nissa got a big nerf in ramp potential wit animist awakening nerf, this would give back some.

Gideon first skill. It used to be OP and was nerfed.
Again the overall meta changed. There are many more removals, most of them being cheap.
There are far worse things(some champion that apparently did not grow enough ) than some first strikers.
Also the nerf only delays a little it. It does not "fix it" like an increase in cost fixes for instance Chandra.
There you have a skill "spammable".
Gideon's one is great only on fist application, since reapplying it on same creature will only give it +1/+1 and regenerate 1. Flying and vigilance have no benefit being reapplied.

Discuss.

shteev

Gideon's first ability is a tricky one. On the one hand, it has very little raw power, and it's almost always better to save up for ability #2. On the other hand, Consul's Lieutenant exists.

soultwist

I agree with this idea, seems kind unfair when the others are at 6 like mentioned.

Way off topic but on a related note (that being re-evaluating changes based on how the game has grown/changed)

Is it time to look at buffing or unnerfing Knight of the White Orchid?

At the time it was changed from 6/6 to 4/4 it was seen (at least by me) as one of the most powerful creatures in the game. You got it out and you won.

It seems the game has moved way past that. 6/6 isn't really a huge creature any more. Everyone has removal spells, damage spells, and other ways of getting first strike not to mention the large numbers of flying creatures that fly right over head.

It seems like it might have been a card before it's time and it should be returned to its glory. I don't think anyone uses it when you can just use Consul's Lieutenant instead.

knthrak

I think the removal in the game has gotten a lot better since the first round of gideon nerfs.

Regardless of whether the cost comes down though, I think the vigilance part should be in the first level, and not in the last level of the ability. I don't like the idea of a planeswalker playing completely differently at level 20 vs. level 60.

Netatron

Morphis wrote:

- draw card. Good if you need it. Usually is not what you are after and if it is usually the gain in mana(unless your hand is empty when you use it) is wasted on other things. So if you are lookin for that removal or mantle of webs of whatever and you get it, it will most likely be not charged by the skill.

In a heavy ramp deck, this is the main thing you would use it for. You get plenty of loyalty and mana from ramping, you just need card draws to replace the ramping cards and spend that mana on. Still, could be one of the things to look at buffing a little in the wake of the Animist's Awakening nerf. I really think they need to stop making every ability cost a multiple of 3 if they want balance.

soultwist wrote:

Is it time to look at buffing or unnerfing Knight of the White Orchid?

I would totally go back to using it if they just lowered the mana cost like they should have done when they nerfed it in the first place. Would have synergy with the currently lackluster mythic Emeria Sheperd too.

VacaNeon

soultwist wrote:

I agree with this idea, seems kind unfair when the others are at 6 like mentioned.

Way off topic but on a related note (that being re-evaluating changes based on how the game has grown/changed)

Is it time to look at buffing or unnerfing Knight of the White Orchid?

At the time it was changed from 6/6 to 4/4 it was seen (at least by me) as one of the most powerful creatures in the game. You got it out and you won.

It seems the game has moved way past that. 6/6 isn't really a huge creature any more. Everyone has removal spells, damage spells, and other ways of getting first strike not to mention the large numbers of flying creatures that fly right over head.

It seems like it might have been a card before it's time and it should be returned to its glory. I don't think anyone uses it when you can just use Consul's Lieutenant instead.

I totally agree.
And the white creatures I am using atm are Consul's Lieutenant, Serene Steward and War Oracle (and none of them are rare nor mythic, lol).
I used to love KotWO, Kytheon's Irregulars, Relic Seeker, Felidar Sovereign and Vryn Wingmare, but just not anymore, I stopped putting them in my white deck. Compare to many new creatures and new PWs, these old creatures are just too costly, and white is not a color that is good at mana ramping.

I would say white is currently the weakest color in term of speed(which is important in QB) and control.

Netatron

VacaNeon wrote:

I would say white is currently the weakest color in term of speed(which is important in QB) and control.

White has a lot of options for disabling and destroying creatures compared to red or green.

VacaNeon

Netatron wrote:

VacaNeon wrote:

I would say white is currently the weakest color in term of speed(which is important in QB) and control.

White has a lot of options for disabling and destroying creatures compared to red or green.

What I mean is, if you want a control deck, you would go for blue or black.
If you want a speed deck, you would go for red or green.
And white? Bleh.

nyaa

VacaNeon wrote:

Netatron wrote:

VacaNeon wrote:

I would say white is currently the weakest color in term of speed(which is important in QB) and control.

White has a lot of options for disabling and destroying creatures compared to red or green.

What I mean is, if you want a control deck, you would go for blue or black.
If you want a speed deck, you would go for red or green.
And white? Bleh.

If I am going for speed, I will use Gideon 2 Allies (or Ajani for the control variant)....

khurram

Netatron wrote:

soultwist wrote:

Is it time to look at buffing or unnerfing Knight of the White Orchid?

I would totally go back to using it if they just lowered the mana cost like they should have done when they nerfed it in the first place. Would have synergy with the currently lackluster mythic Emeria Sheperd too.

I have not used the white knight ever since they nerfed it. Why would i when i can just use lieutenant and then focus on buffing him?

Make it cost less. Or increase its attack power. Or give it renown.

Also agree about emeria. Happy though i was when i got her, her ability is too situational for a mythic. White landfalls are so rare and returning cards to hand just doesnt have enough appeal.

khurram

shteev wrote:

Gideon's first ability is a tricky one. On the one hand, it has very little raw power, and it's almost always better to save up for ability #2. On the other hand, Consul's Lieutenant exists.

The lieutenant exists even when the ability costs 9 loyalty, and thank god for its existence.

What morphis said is that it only delays giving vigilance to him. And the delay is kind of situational too. You may end up casting the lieutenant the same time you fill up your loyalty bar and give him vigilance as soon as he is renowned.

In any case, i have grown so used to gideons ability costing 9 that i almost dont even remember it used to cost 3 unless someone brings it up.

I think it would be good to revise it in some way though

Franko

I for sure would use Gideon's first skill a lot more if it was at 6 instead of just saving for the last skill to buff lieutenant.