Garruk or Nissa for mono-Green Ramp?

Jazzpha

Like the title says, I'm wondering if Garruk's higher mana gain offsets Nissa's ramping loyalty abilities in the long term, on average. Garruk's abilities are fairly useless if you're not focusing on token buffing and synergy, but for those who have played with both him and Nissa, do you find that ramp works better with one consistently over the other?

Thanks!

Meto5000

Jazzpha wrote:

Like the title says, I'm wondering if Garruk's higher mana gain offsets Nissa's ramping loyalty abilities in the long term, on average. Garruk's abilities are fairly useless if you're not focusing on token buffing and synergy, but for those who have played with both him and Nissa, do you find that ramp works better with one consistently over the other?

Thanks!

I would rather cast creatures with terrific abilities like Undergrowth Champion and Greenwarden of Murasa then vanilla tokens. The mana and life gain + card draw of Nissa's first ability is terrific for difficult PVE battles. I don't think Nissa or Garruk are particularly great in QB.

snow_leopardd

I had good success with Nissa before the last patch in QB, even without many of the 'good' mythics. The nerf to animists awakening has hurt the decks performance. It still does okay, it is just not easy to drop a fatty or two in a turn. I don't own Garruk, but usually do not have a major issue when I have to face him.

EDHdad

Garruk is more consistent and can win more quickly in Quick Battle mode. Since you never need to have a creature in hand, you can concentrate on other stuff. And if you put something expensive and powerful like Desolation Twins in your Garruk deck as your only creature, you can take advantage of all that ramping you've been doing.

This Garruk list typically wins Quick Battle in 3 1/2 to 4 minutes, unless it runs across a triple-reinforced Undergrowth Champion which has been given +3/+3 and first strike by Helm of the Gods.

Nissa's Pilgrimage
Mantle of Webs
Scour from Existence
Desolation Twin
Fertile Thicket
Natural Connection
Mirrorpool
Animist's Awakening
Gather the Pack
Seek the Wilds

Since you already have Nissa, you might try a similar list with Nissa and see how it fares. If you do have Garruk, I recommend using his 2nd ability when possible.

Morphis

If you talk about pure ramp then nissa is the obvious choice.

If you talk about ramp with some support to it, Garruck can be better with some creature enhance supports.
This way the token can get the initial beating while you are accumulating mana for big fatties.

Probably overall Garruck power level is better, if that is a decisive factor for you.

EDHdad

If you talk about pure ramp then nissa is the obvious choice.

I'm not sure she is. Garruk could win the game playing nothing but 10 cards which say "turn 3 gems green". Nissa would just be turning gems green.

Morphis

EDHdad wrote:

If you talk about pure ramp then nissa is the obvious choice.

I'm not sure she is. Garruk could win the game playing nothing but 10 cards which say "turn 3 gems green". Nissa would just be turning gems green.

Yes but then you are basically ramping for loyalty.
I think he means ramping for big fatties.
As I wrote Garruck can compliment the ramps with presence on the field through tokens so he is "less vulnerable" while ramping.

When we talk about pure ramp potential in itself nissa has first and last skill designed for ramp, Garruck has none.
I know it is banally obvious, but that's simply how it is.

Meto5000

Morphis wrote:

If you talk about pure ramp then nissa is the obvious choice.

If you talk about ramp with some support to it, Garruk can be better with some creature enhance supports.
This way the token can get the initial beating while you are accumulating mana for big fatties.

Probably overall Garruk power level is better, if that is a decisive factor for you.

I wonder how much extra mana per turn Garruk gets on average vs Nissa by just matching gems. I imagine it's around 2-3 extra per turn. Maybe that by itself is enough to make him a better PW than Nissa now that her loyalty abilities are so expensive.

EDHdad

When we talk about pure ramp potential in itself nissa has first and last skill designed for ramp, Garruck has none.

For the same loyalty that Nissa spends turning 3 gems green, Garruk puts 8 power directly into play.

If the goal of the ramp deck is to ramp into a fattie, Garruk has Nissa beat hands down. He can generate just as much mana to cast the fattie and can throw another fattie onto the pile with the extra loyalty. Plus, he can save a card slot which Nissa would have to devote to a 16-25 mana creature.

EDHdad

I just tested this theory by plugging the same deck into Nissa that I was playing with Garruk.

While the Garruk deck typically won Quick Battle in 3 1/2 to 4 minutes, the Nissa deck, running the exact same list, typically won in 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 minutes.

If these results are typical, then I would say that, if speed is the issue, Garruk is probably better for a dedicated ramp deck in PvP mode.

I will say that in testing, Nissa's 2nd ability (each creature gains +7/+7 for one turn) often ended the game a full turn quicker than it would have otherwise.

However, that doesn't beat having an extra 8/8 or 16/16 or 24/24 body kicking around turn after turn.

Overall, the Garruk deck was able to stabilize more quickly if one or more creatures had been bounced or destroyed, and it was more effective when there were no creatures in hand. Your mileage may vary. Good luck!

Jazzpha

Thanks for all the replies, everyone! Much obliged.

It seems like Garruk is probably the best PvP pick, which is really the only aspect that matters, as looking at them in Story Mode they're essentially identical (as speed isn't a factor, outside of objectives-- and for those, you're not going to be running a Green deck).

When I save up the crystals and don't feel the need to buy more card packs, I'll probably get Garruk. Good news is that by then, I'll definitely have enough runes to get him from 0-60 immediately, which I haven't been able to do with any other PW so far.

Plastic

+1 for Garruk. His 2nd ability will be your go-to skill most of the time and with his mana bonuses it's harder to get mana screwed compared to Nissa. I've always had way more success with speed using him vs Nissa.

khurram

Agreed. Garruk averages more mana per turn than nissa. The only advantage nissa has for mana ramp on garruk is her first and 3rd abilities. Which i hardly end up using anyway

Morphis

I never actually got Garruck caus I do not like the way they designed it.
Three skills all identical.
Little to no sinergy with anything(not more sinergy than playing a creature).

Anyways it looks like he is outperforming nissa in every single aspect.
Tomorrow with crystal gains I will buy it.
Since I put back mantle of webs in my green deck, having a 8/8 can help if I draw that and have no creature in play/hand.

I still have hope they will bring nissa back to being good for ramp/landfall themed decks.

EDHdad

Three skills all identical.

That's the illusion. In actual practice, 99% of the time, he has one skill which is all identical. I've rarely used his first ability, unless the 8/8 is disabled or I really need an emergency 4/4 body.

But for most planeswalkers, you usually build your deck around one skill and use that skill the majority of the time. How often do you cast Nissa's 3rd ability? Has it ever meant the difference between life and death? Her incidental lifegain doesn't mean much when her starting life is 11 points lower than Garruk's (98 vs 109). She'd have to spam her 1st ability 4 times just to break even. And how often is three points of lifegain the difference between winning the game and losing? One game in 500?

If crystals and runes are no object, you might go for Kiora over Garruk, because her 2nd ability can fetch and pay for an enormous creature if you build your deck that way. When Kiora runs a similar list to the Garruk deck I posted, she also will win in 3 1/2 to 4 minutes. Plus, you don't need Seek the Wilds / Gather the Pack to put the creature in hand, so you free up 2 card slots for more removal, pump or ramp.

The Garruk deck is also very linear. If you want more lines of play, but also retain the ability to throw down an 8/8 for 9 loyalty, then Gideon II works well. Gideon II can be pretty fast in PvP mode (4 minutes or so without major disruption), and he also has more spells / effects which can destroy or disable opposing creatures, and better access to lifegain.

Morphis

By identical I meant "cover the same need". That of course leads to using the one with better loyalty/stat ratio I.e. The second.

Using only one skill is not necessarily true but more importantly should not be "forced".

From my current experience:

- nissa I use first till i need. Use second once I do not need first anymore(or lucky cascades build it up) as a finisher or to let my blockers survive.

- Koth I use first most of the time. 2nd as finisher. Rarely third one(but I suppose is helpful for pve)

- Liliana I use first and third mostly. If am low on removals sometimes use second.

- Jace. Do not use it. Never XD

- tezzeret I use first one mostly and second sometimes. If all is set I save for third.

- Chandra is usually spam first. There rarely I use second.

- ajani is first and second when needed.

- Gideon I is first most likely. Second and third when in control of fight(mostly to speed up).

- Gideon II first and second are great and cover different needs. Third usually not better than second but sometime valid.

- kiora is usually only first skill. But different builds could prefer more use of second or even third skill.

For ob I can guess is use first when you need to get something specifically.
Second if you happen to not have removal(unlikely but depends on your deck)
Third to start doing serious damage.

So out of all planeswalker, most of them use quite often at least 2 different skills.

Using Garruck second skill is not better than playing a 8/8 creature other than having better chances at reinforcing that.
At least Gideon II gets rally from second skill.

That said a 8/8 creature in itself for 9 loyalty is a great deal.
No discussion about it.
It is just... Boring.

EDHdad

I'm mostly the same, but here are some differences:

* Nissa I'll check the board for a green match, 5 match or potential cascade first. If none is available, or if I really need card draw, then I'll do first ability. If I have 3 attackers and the loyalty available, I'll definitely do 2nd ability. If I have 2 attackers, I might do 2nd ability, depending on the board state.

* Liliana I'll use 1st if their 1st card has mana sunk into it. 3rd if I've had 2 or 3 creatures die and there are slots for them to come back to life.

* Jace I'll use 1st if they have an attacker with 5 or more power or if my creatures are going to slam into their creatures. 2nd if I just cast a spell that I want back in my hand (example: Turn to Frog).

* Tezzeret I rarely play. I would probably use his loyalty either to buff my Thopter Spy Network, or to try to fetch a Thopter Spy Network, or to put another support in play to trigger Thopter Spy Network.

* Chandra I always, always, always check the board. If there is a red match, a cascade or a 5-match I won't use her ability. If the opponent has 2 or more creatures toughness 4 or less, I'll wait to use her 2nd ability. If the opponent has hexproof creatures on board, I'll favor the 2nd ability. If I have 21 loyalty, I'll almost always use the 3rd ability.

* Gideon I, I prefer the 2nd ability if I have 2 or more creatures, or the 3rd ability if I want a beater.

* Gideon II, I prefer the 2nd ability. If the opponent has a 4 power or less attacker or defender, I might use the 1st ability to try to kill it. If my creature slots are full, but I have at least 1 Ally on board, I'll use the 3rd ability.

* Kiora I almost always use the 2nd skill to fetch the only creature in my deck. (Desolation Twin for aggro, Drowner of Hope for control. I also generate creatures with From Beyond (aggro) or Thopter Spy Network (control). I might use her 1st ability if doing so will cast a card I need right now or if the opponent has been struggling to power up a particularly large spell (especially if the opponent is Koth).

* Ob Nixilis is 100% built around the 3rd ability. I never use the 1st ability just to draw cards. I will start using it once his ultimate is on board, to deal 16 damage for 2 loyalty. I'll use the 2nd ability if the opponent is packing support destruction or if I need to kill a create and have no kill spells powered up.

* Using Garruk's 2nd ability is substantially better than putting an 8/8 in the deck. If your creature slots are full, then the 8/8 is a dead card. In Garruk, you can replace the 8/8 with Mantle of Webs. Then, you have the flexibility to put Mantle of Webs on any creature you wish (even an opponent's creature in some corner cases). With Mirrorpool and Desolation Twin, the token Twin will be a 20/20. Now with Mantle of Webs it becomes a 21/23 with reach. I don't have to put creatures like Skysnare Spider into my deck, whose only purpose is to hope to block something, and who dies to anything with power greater than 6.

If you think Garruk is boring, then build him differently. Anything you can put in a Nissa deck, you can put into a Garruk deck. If you don't like aggro midrange, then play control or combo. Or use Herald of the Pantheon and a bunch of supports. Garruk gives you the flexiblity to do this because you don't need to devote so much deck space to creatures.

Morphis

Basically more in detail what I do most of the time.
Yes Garruck gives more chance to use mantle, that's mainly why I am switching to him from nissa.

He is good, strong and functional.
Just lacks a theme.
Something only he is meant to excel at.