PvP nice guys

loroku

As has been pointed out, this PvP did something unusual where there are static 4* rewards at both 800 and 1000 points - and for a new character, no less. I did ok in the PvE that gave out Peggy and even managed to snag her from the 75 yr vault so I thought: I'll go for it. The problem: I am a casual player by this game's standard. I've been playing since a few months after release, but I only play about an hour a day, with some days getting up to 2-3, and rarely 3-4. Now, this is not casual by my own definition: playing a game for an hour or two every day is hardly casual. But in this game, that means after 600+ days I'm still in the 3* -> 4* transition, with zero viable 4*s. My best PvP team is Cage + Fist, or Daken + Fist for speed. None of these are above 170. Also, I avoid PvP placement rewards because they're so hard for me and take too much time, so I am completely out of my element.

First, let me say that the way PvP works is a mystery to anyone who isn't already intimately familiar with how it works. There is NO in-game information about shielding, the fact that you have countdown timers for shields, or why you can still get attacked after shielding and lose points (check your placement immediately or you will get hit!). Also, the tips section of this site lists a bunch of made-up rules that no casual player is going to understand. I understand the idea of "no double taps" and I can respect that (although it's extremely difficult to keep up with names - I don't know how you guys do it - and I usually just try to remember teams instead), but things like waiting for people to shield and not hitting someone immediately - I have no idea how to go about doing those things because I don't have access to all the mountains of out-of-game information that other people do.

And I know that other people coordinate because there are absolutely bullies. I had a shield up overnight and was unshielded for about 30 mins before I woke up and got attacked like 9 times in that window. Maybe it was a coincidence or maybe it was coordinated, but watching 200+ points evaporate in seconds sucks. It's extremely demoralizing to PvP, especially as someone who just stuck their toe in the deep end. I have to think this keeps people like me out, which I also have to think is worse for the game overall since that means you don't grow your end-game numbers. But who knows, maybe other people don't care.

But the reason for this post is because of the nice guys. I had finally gotten to 900 points and shielded, and was taking my time to REALLY skip a lot and find something that wouldn't slay me, and I noticed that some extremely kind people - who had to be WAY above me because they were worth 60-70 points - had rostered 1* characters. Guys, I can't tell you how awesome that is: that is the only reason I managed to hit 1000. I have no idea who you are because I never look at names but you are great. You are absolutely helping folks get their low-hanging 4* covers, and my hat is off to you!

tanis3303

We, the Bakers Society of Old Man Logan Quest, (or BSOMLQ for...short?) salute you. All that we ask is that if you find us, by all means take our gift of easy points. BUT...please, pretty please, wait 2-3 minutes before doing so. We do this to help everyone, and all we ask in return is to not have our scores lowered for doing so. Once that team shows up, we usually do one more match with our 4-5* teams, which takes about 2 minutes, give or take. So if you find those delicious 1* teams, hold that Q for a few seconds and let us shield ourselves before having a taste.

~ Sincerley, Everyone that Bakes

Magic

I don't coordinate with the bakers (would take too much from my life away) but I do appreciate each and every cupcake I find on my climb. So thanks bakers - you cook delicious treats!

PeterGibbons316

This has become my favorite thing to do (doesn't always work, but I've done it a couples times now....)

1.) Start event early, beat two seed teams, maybe a couple more, then beat the 3rd seed team with a 1* team and stop.
2.) Play PvE (assuming non-heroic), or sleep, or something else until the final day (final 8h better).
3.) Use 5* team to beat all retals but the easiest (usually another 1* team), and then continue climbing - usually off a-teams, but I do find the occasional cake as well.
4.) At 1300 I finally bring my preferred baking team (loaner/lvl 1 Storm/lvl 1 hawkeye) and beat that last retal that I still have (usually with a level 370 Carnage red TU).
5.) Wait 30 seconds, and shield through the end of the event.

I get my 25 CP, help others get there too, and preserve my score for the season while staying HP positive. Wins all around.

Jarvind

Just popping in here to remind everyone that every person that hits you is not a "bully," they more than likely just saw a team they could beat for decent points and did that, because that is how PVP works.

TxMoose

I've never coordinated but anything I queue during my push - real teams and cakes - I usually try and give one match-worth of time between me queuing it and hitting it. its nice to get a 3-node rotation going but it usually ends up a 2-node swap. queue 2 nodes. hit node A. queue new match into node A and then hit node B. queue new match into node B hit node A. rinse/repeat. that gives a minimum of 1 match of time to allow the person to shield. any cakes I queue I try and hit a full team before hitting it. that is usually plenty of time for them to get through their last match and shield up. I'd hope I rarely catch an unshielded cake while climbing. hopping is different altogether because unless theyre on your leaderboard, you have no idea of who is unshielded when. pretty much a crapshoot.

Calnexin

I sympathize. There is a meta to this game that is inaccessible to the casual player. If you're not coordinating separately via some team-based chat room, you are completely ignorant of both etiquette and opportunity.

That's what's required to be in the upper echelon. You have to be willing to grind at the right moment, communicate, and expend resources for maximum gain. Somehow they managed to make a FTP mobile game competitive in real-time. Knowing that, you should treat it as such. Absent wads of surplus cash or somehow making a career off the game, manage your expectations. Rank-and-file can still enjoy the simple gameplay and collection aspect without the new shiny. Hulkbuster, Iceman, Jean, etc are all still top-tier characters, and they've been out for quite a while. Slow and steady isn't as exciting as the cutting edge, but it's way less time-consuming.

loroku

tanis3303 wrote:

BUT...please, pretty please, wait 2-3 minutes before doing so.

I hope I did that; I was shielded so I know it was a minute or two. But I may have gotten so excited to be done with it all, I'm not sure. If I see these again I will! And thanks again!

tanis3303 wrote:

Once that team shows up, we usually do one more match with our 4-5* teams, which takes about 2 minutes, give or take

I have no idea what this means. I also had no idea how someone would even be able to put a 1* team in there, until:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

This has become my favorite thing to do (doesn't always work, but I've done it a couples times now....)

Thank you! I had thought people must be saving low-hanging fruit but retals seem to overwrite your saved nodes? I knew you couldn't be saving one of the starter guys since those would surely be overwritten. Still so many weird rules to PvP that aren't written down anywhere.

Jarvind wrote:

Just popping in here to remind everyone that every person that hits you is not a "bully,"

To be fair, you cannot qualify that statement any more than my statement that there are bullies! All I know is that there are people with way more information than me, who play by rules that are invisible to me, and sometimes I get hit a lot really quickly - like, obviously by 4-5 people in the span of a minute. And again, because I don't have all the extra information, I can't tell if this is on purpose or if I'm just unlucky. (Or, because this game updates so slowly, if what I said was even true!) So we're all left to draw our own conclusions. Which is why PvP is infuriating! If everyone had the same amount of information, it would be a lot better for so many things. But this is where we are.

loroku

TxMoose wrote:

unless theyre on your leaderboard, you have no idea of who is unshielded when.

Well except for all those people who do! I don't know how all that works, either.

Calnexin wrote:

I sympathize. There is a meta to this game that is inaccessible to the casual player. If you're not coordinating separately via some team-based chat room, you are completely ignorant of both etiquette and opportunity.

Yup. It's weird to me, because it's extremely elitist. (Not insulting any of the players - just saying the method requires elite effort/timing/communication, and nothing less will suffice.) It seems like you would end up with a small pool of people (less than 1%?) who have 99% of the rewards, and mostly compete against each other, while 99% of the playerbase shares the remaining 1% of the rewards, and goes about our merry way. Or you get a situation like this event, where a few people stick their toe in, and it gets bitten off - scaring them away for good! I guess the 1% is big enough to prop up the game so the devs don't have much incentive to change it? Who knows.

"manage your expectations" - yup! That's why I call myself "casual" even though I play this game more than any other and am certainly not a casual player.

Mattjimf

loroku wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

BUT...please, pretty please, wait 2-3 minutes before doing so.

I hope I did that; I was shielded so I know it was a minute or two. But I may have gotten so excited to be done with it all, I'm not sure. If I see these again I will! And thanks again!

tanis3303 wrote:

Once that team shows up, we usually do one more match with our 4-5* teams, which takes about 2 minutes, give or take

I have no idea what this means. I also had no idea how someone would even be able to put a 1* team in there, until:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

This has become my favorite thing to do (doesn't always work, but I've done it a couples times now....)

Thank you! I had thought people must be saving low-hanging fruit but retals seem to overwrite your saved nodes? I knew you couldn't be saving one of the starter guys since those would surely be overwritten. Still so many weird rules to PvP that aren't written down anywhere.

Jarvind wrote:

Just popping in here to remind everyone that every person that hits you is not a "bully,"

To be fair, you cannot qualify that statement any more than my statement that there are bullies! All I know is that there are people with way more information than me, who play by rules that are invisible to me, and sometimes I get hit a lot really quickly - like, obviously by 4-5 people in the span of a minute. And again, because I don't have all the extra information, I can't tell if this is on purpose or if I'm just unlucky. (Or, because this game updates so slowly, if what I said was even true!) So we're all left to draw our own conclusions. Which is why PvP is infuriating! If everyone had the same amount of information, it would be a lot better for so many things. But this is where we are.

I just look at the bullying thing as being due to the lack of high scoring matches the more points you have. I'm sure in my long climb to 1000 points I got hit numerous times by the same people, just as I hit the same people on my climb up. Once I hit the 1000 point mark, I didn't care about final score as I don't rely on PVP and ended up with 637 which still got me top 20. As much as you think they are bullies, you don't really focus on player names when scrambling to get the reward you want, and all the teams with loaner, OML and a.n other (loki seemed popular) just meld into another team you have to beat.

loroku

Mattjimf wrote:

I just look at the bullying thing as being due to the lack of high scoring matches the more points you have.

Oh sure, I understand it. I mean, I'm sure most of the time I'm just an easy mark: I use IF and Daken a lot and they are easy to kill. But I know coordinated attacks also happen and it's impossible for me to know when I'm targeted by those or not. Which means any "lesson" that is being applied doesn't really work because there's no context. It's really more a comment on the system; I do not mean to imply that most individuals are actual bullies.

cyineedsn

Grats on getting those covers!

But from what you've described, it doesn't sound like you got bullied or targeted by the illuminati-line-mafia or whatever. It sounds more likely that you climbed over 800 points with a 3* team, and unfortunately at that level (in any veteran bracket) you become a very juicy target. In any case, it doesn't sound like it's anyone's personal vendetta against you.

TxMoose

I have to disagree to a lot of the sentiment here.

first, the "meta" and "upper echelon" of the game won't be accessible to 'casual' players here, just like any other game. you cannot play a multiplayer casually and get into the meta - just doesn't happen.

second, if you don't know about things, ask someone. there are tons of very experienced vets around that would be happy to answer some questions and have some discussion about different game aspects. I learned most of what I know about the game from one who did exactly that, which brings me to...

third, outside communication is not necessary, but can be helpful. i'll start by saying that I'm not a casual player. I play the game competitively and enjoy that aspect of it. I have also never used outside communication for pvp and I seem to do ok. didn't quite score 20K last season, but have been in the 18Ks and 19Ks per season for a while. in a t25 alliance. and have never used line. (side note: joined yesterday, but not sure how much bc i'll be doing). I operate within my roster and my abilities and when I extend beyond, I'm reminded by hits that come in. not because someone decides to bully me, but because I'm worth more points than my roster can defend. I also greatly partake in the baking dynamic, mostly as a consumer, but occasionally as a provider. and I've been complained about once. because my play schedule lined up with his often and I happened to hop at the same time he did and caught him unshielded several times. he requested I lay off. I was happy to. this was done via the forums. you don't NEED line (which is what most forumites mean by 'outside communication' - technically the forum is outside communication), but like I said, it can help.

also, keep in mind that the server does not notify hits immediately. sometimes its 5 minutes or more between me seeing my score reduce in the standings and the notification popping up. if you were worth points and several hit you over a 5 minute stretch and you got the notification all at once...could it have been bullying? sure. it could have been (did you happen to be in slice 2?), but it also could have been that you extended beyond the strength of your active team and if you're worth points, you'll be hit.

generally the best method I've come up with is find your natural 'hovering' or 'floating' level of points where you don't get hit much. might be anywhere from 300 to 700. for me its around 600 or so. then, at a time that is late enough in the slice that there are points built up, but before the last 8 hrs (if you're tight on hp you can go later, but there's more activity later, so there is risk there), push in one big push as high as you can. for me that can be anywhere from 1K to 1300, depending on event, slice, and boosteds. then shield and cycle queues to get some targets lined up and hop as necessary to get to event end.

its isn't some mystery that has no answer. if you'd like info, just ask.

PeeOne

So while perhaps off the original topic... But touched on in the replies... I have to ask a couple of questions....

To the bakers... You ask us to hold off a few minutes so you don't lose points and you shield... Doesn't that mean if you are shielded we don't get points for the win?

When playing PVP can you be lined up by say 10 people and when shields drop all 10 people can fight you at once?!?!

Yesterday with 10 minutes to go in the Peggy PvP I had worked up to about 60th and was heading for the 1000 ISO at 850 was sitting pretty at 826 and selected a 40 point match... By the time the battle was over I was down to 750 - someone had attacked - and I was fine with that....

Never made it to the 850... Ended up on 528 position 151 - THAT I'm not fine with

This is why I rarely PvP

PS I also think my single 5* Cap cover affected my scaling and matching... It Was hinted to me that with 3* champs he would make a difference I think everything is harder!!

PeterGibbons316

PeeOne wrote:

So while perhaps off the original topic... But touched on in the replies... I have to ask a couple of questions....

To the bakers... You ask us to hold off a few minutes so you don't lose points and you shield... Doesn't that mean if you are shielded we don't get points for the win?

When playing PVP can you be lined up by say 10 people and when shields drop all 10 people can fight you at once?!?!

No. You always get the points, if they are shielded they don't lose the points. The way the queue system works when you skip it lines up several targets and stacks them in the node - if there aren't a lot of available targets you will often queue the same team several times. It's possible to skip, find a cake, hold it for several hours, then hit it, skip a few more times, and even though that target has been shielded for several hours you can still queue up that cake again from your cache. So don't think that you need to hit a cake quickly so that you can queue it up again (you can't, you won't beat that cake faster than their A-team takes out their next cake), if you would queue it again you already have.

Yes, you can get hit by 10 people simultaneously.

Jarvind

loroku wrote:

Jarvind wrote:

Just popping in here to remind everyone that every person that hits you is not a "bully,"

To be fair, you cannot qualify that statement any more than my statement that there are bullies! All I know is that there are people with way more information than me, who play by rules that are invisible to me, and sometimes I get hit a lot really quickly - like, obviously by 4-5 people in the span of a minute.

I'll clarify a bit. Here's how I play, and how I would imagine the overwhelming majority of non-forumers (i.e. 98% of players) play PVP. I don't coordinate on outside chat apps or have an understanding with any players outside of my alliance. I'm effectively flying solo. I usually hit 1k unless I'm lazy, and I hit 1300 about half the time.

1) Pull up available matches.
2) Figure out which team has the best ratio of difficulty to points earned. If nothing's good, skip until one is.
3) If this is not an alliance member, hit them.

That's it. The term "bully" implies that there are people out there who are hitting you just because they don't like you or don't think that your roster "deserves" to rank higher. While I'm sure that one or two people out there probably have this mentality, because people are awful, I don't buy that you're being singled out in that way on a regular basis. Plus the way queuing works makes it very difficult if not impossible to victimize one specific person like that. Most of them just see a team that's easy to beat, so they hit you.

I used to get stomped all to hell when I was using a 3* roster too. I've gone from 900 to 600 in the time it took to play one match between shields. It sucks, no doubt. So I got on the forums, read the guides, joined a helpful alliance, and now it's much easier. Granted, I have a much stronger roster now so that helps as well.

My original comment wasn't meant as a putdown, just a reminder that PVP stands for player versus player and you need to expect to get hit.

Stax the Foyer

PeeOne wrote:

To the bakers... You ask us to hold off a few minutes so you don't lose points and you shield... Doesn't that mean if you are shielded we don't get points for the win?

No. If you hit someone who shields before you make the winning move, you will get points, and they will not lose points. Hitting shielded people is one of the main ways that points get injected into a shard. It's a win-win.

Shielding affects two things:

1) It prevents you from losing points when you're shielded, and
2) It prevents other people from being able to see you while you're shielded (e.g., you won't come up in their targets as they skip through targets)

PeeOne wrote:

When playing PVP can you be lined up by say 10 people and when shields drop all 10 people can fight you at once?!?!

That could theoretically happen, but is very unlikely. When you're shielded, you won't be showing up to other people. They could hold your team and wait for your shield to drop, but there's no real way to tell if someone's shield dropped unless they're visible to you on the leaderboard.

What's much more likely is that when your shield drops, you'll start showing up to other people as they skip through targets. With a comparatively soft team at high points, you're a good value, and some people will attack you instantly. Many people won't, but not everyone is that nice.

cozmo1682

Peter - in your steps, what does the waiting for 30 seconds before shielding do on your last setp? Allow your team to get out there and be seen? Seems like those 30 seconds could result in a few attacks before you shield?

I'm at the right team right slice a little luck can get to 1k part of the game, but always looking to understand the techniques of the higher scorers.

loroku

I think a few people are getting annoyed because I used the word "bully." I'll just say again, my issue is with the system, not the people playing. The way the system works is cumbersome, strange, and actively hostile to new players. And this isn't typical for PvP games, since 1) you need a lower learning curve if you're ever going to get new people in (LoL excepted) and 2) in this game, skill doesn't play that much of a role. It's certainly there, but luck is important and roster strength trumps all other factors. And you can't get the roster strength unless you are already strong enough to get the roster strength. If I wanted to triple my daily playtime average I could get a slightly stronger roster, sure. No chance of that happening. (And the barrier to entry just gets bigger over time - I know, I've been playing a while!)

Anyway, the point of this thread is that I didn't know things like "cupcaking" existed and now I do and thanks a bunch because that was the only way I hit 1000!

Meander

cozmo1682 wrote:

Peter - in your steps, what does the waiting for 30 seconds before shielding do on your last setp? Allow your team to get out there and be seen? Seems like those 30 seconds could result in a few attacks before you shield?

I'm at the right team right slice a little luck can get to 1k part of the game, but always looking to understand the techniques of the higher scorers.

Yes, the 30 seconds is to provide people the opportunity to queue your team. Can you take hits, especially from people who are seen as snipers (in this case, I specifically mean 5* players who keep their points low via 'dumping' to try and bring down others)? Absolutely. It's a risk you take any time you bake, regardless if you wait 30 seconds and shield on a cake (low level team) or do a reset match (play another lined up cake with your normal fully powered team). Traditionally, this potential loss of points is a reason why some don't bake cake teams until they're past 1300. Some front-runners or charitable people will bake pre-1300, but they're assuming the risk.

loroku

Meander wrote:

Yes, the 30 seconds is to provide people the opportunity to queue your team.

Are you saying if you are shielded people can't queue your team?