Make 4* Characters Relevant in PVP (and PVE?) Again

jobob

So... once you pass into the 5* realm... an odd thing happens. Your 3* roster becomes more important than your 4* roster... and your 4*s become largely irrelevant. I'm primarily speaking about PVP, but it happens to a lesser extent in PVE as well.

This is partly because there is such a gap between 4* and 5*s. Some of the 5* (Iceman, for example) come close to 5* level when boosted if you have added a significant amount of champ levels to them... but for the most part, even a boosted 4* doesn't win a spot on the team over a 450+ 5* in normal PVP. This is the way the system is designed, and I highly doubt it will change.

The other reason is the lack of 4* feature events in PVP (other than release events). You are locked into using a 3* in PVP, so if that character boosts up to 390, that's a HUGE advantage over one that you haven't champed and maxed. So it still pays off in PVP to have a deep 3* roster of highly-leveld characters. 4*? Not so much. Honestly... not at all for me. This is something the Devs could change... I still don't understand why we aren't seeing the non-release 4* feature events.

I said this is primarily a PVP phenomenon... but to be honest, I hardly ever use 4*s in PVE as well (outside of heroics and essentials). Again, my 3* see more action than the 4*. Reason being, the 3* tier has, in my opinion, better support characters than the 4* tier. There are 3 primary teams that I use in PVE... all of which revolve around a 3*:
SWitch, GG, Phoenix
IM40, BSS, Phoenix
IF, OML, BSS
I don't know if anything can be done about this, other than releasing 4* with better support powers to complement the 5*s... I am mainly pointing it out because I think it's odd that the 3* (rather, a few 3*) remain relevant longer than the 4* do. (And yes, I know there are solid 4* out there... PMax, XFDP, Quake, etc that work well in PVP... I just find they don't work AS WELL as the 3*s)


Bottom line: In one humble man's opinion, we need more 4* feature events in PVP (really we need more event variety in general, but that's another soap box). And it might be fun to add some "support" characters along the lines of SW, IF, IM40 to the 4* ranks.

TxMoose

my prediction = this will happen about the time I finish going back and finishing the rest of my 3s. then those months of work will only be for the champ rewards. I'm 7 down and 16 to go on the ones I didn't champ originally (I did add im40 when he was redone). I'm plodding on with them though. will be doing the 2s too and start that cover engine, slow as it will be.

Various38

Jobob, I think you jumped on your 5* level up faster than needed. I use four stars all the time such as Teen Jean, XPool, Prof X, etc... I've noticed that if you jump too fast on the 5 stars is still creates an imbalance in your roster. 3 stars being support is fine, but your 4's need to be relevant also with levels and power combos. I'm not saying how you feel about the situation is wrong it's just that I have a different view. I have all of my 2's champed except for bagman who is covered, and all of my 3 stars are champed but I still use the 4 star teams regularly even at level 168 where I have them soft capped. I haven't even touched the levels on my 5 stars yet since I don't have the strong 4 star base to support it yet.

With that being said, I don't like the way the game handles leveling and difficulty. Even though it was supposed to change, we still see an imbalance between leveling your roster and difficulty spiking in all events in my opinion.

meekersX

Various38 wrote:

Jobob, I think you jumped on your 5* level up faster than needed. I use four stars all the time such as Teen Jean, XPool, Prof X, etc... I've noticed that if you jump too fast on the 5 stars is still creates an imbalance in your roster. 3 stars being support is fine, but your 4's need to be relevant also with levels and power combos. I'm not saying how you feel about the situation is wrong it's just that I have a different view. I have all of my 2's champed except for bagman who is covered, and all of my 3 stars are champed but I still use the 4 star teams regularly even at level 168 where I have them soft capped. I haven't even touched the levels on my 5 stars yet since I don't have the strong 4 star base to support it yet.

With that being said, I don't like the way the game handles leveling and difficulty. Even though it was supposed to change, we still see an imbalance between leveling your roster and difficulty spiking in all events in my opinion.

You're wrong. How high do you climb in PvP?

Various38

I will throw up 1000 if I have time. Usually I just play to about 600 or so. If you are playing for the 1300 then yes you will encounter more 5 stars and that's what I would expect. That is usually the 5 star realm, but that doesn't mean that 4 star teams can't take them down. It does mean they are vulnerable on defense. In fact, anything less than high 5 stars on defense is waiting to get hit at that level. Also, when I say I usually throw up 1000 that usually means in no more than one shield hop if I feel like it. The teams I face aren't based on my 5 star levels, but on my other levels as you can probably see from my roster list below. If and when I push my 4 stars, then it will be mostly a 4 star / low 5 star battle. I don't doubt your experience with the MMR, but remember it's based on your highest characters usually so if you have mid-high 5's and low covered 4's the 4's will be all but useless. A lot of 4's have good support, but that comes down to team composition more than anything.

meekersX

jobob is in KA Jedi where the minimum score for each PvP is "only" 1500 though the people there often score 2000 or more. It's an exercise in futility to climb much past 1300 without many hops if you don't level a 5 . Any time I see a team of 4 , even boosted, they are fodder for my 5 team. I won't even use a 4 anymore if they aren't boosted. Both of these are problems stemming from 5 being significantly stronger than 4 . It makes the game boring because you use the same teams for every match in every mode.

jobob

Various38 wrote:

I will throw up 1000 if I have time. Usually I just play to about 600 or so. If you are playing for the 1300 then yes you will encounter more 5 stars and that's what I would expect. That is usually the 5 star realm, but that doesn't mean that 4 star teams can't take them down. It does mean they are vulnerable on defense. In fact, anything less than high 5 stars on defense is waiting to get hit at that level. Also, when I say I usually throw up 1000 that usually means in no more than one shield hop if I feel like it. The teams I face aren't based on my 5 star levels, but on my other levels as you can probably see from my roster list below. If and when I push my 4 stars, then it will be mostly a 4 star / low 5 star battle. I don't doubt your experience with the MMR, but remember it's based on your highest characters usually so if you have mid-high 5's and low covered 4's the 4's will be all but useless. A lot of 4's have good support, but that comes down to team composition more than anything.

I understand what you are saying, but you are talking about something completely different. Looks like you are in the 3-4* transition, so of course 4* are relevant. Soon they will form the backbone of your roster... But once you push past them, they will go on the shelf and see less use than your 3* in PVP. That's the problem... Once you hit "endgame," the 4*s go to the bench, and that's a shame. It's nice that the 3* get used, I just wish the 4* did too.

SnowcaTT

I've been a huge advocate for dual PVP's - let people enroll in both, keep the current format with no boosted 4*'s and banned 5*'s, keep the current character format for 4* rewards in all 3* reward spots.

I went straight from 300 -> 450 a season ago but only have one 5* and I have to disagree that 3*'s matter more - I basically don't even glance at 3* levels, they could be 266 (fully leveled) + boosted and I probably wouldn't notice until I wonder why their health is so high as I beat them down last. I'm only looking at the 5* level (and I see 5* in -every- matchup) and if they have a boosted 4*. And I'm dreading the events where I don't have the boosted 4*, and I'm punished for having leveled my characters.

Same in PVE. My scaling went super high, and which 3* is essential is basically as irrelevant as which 2* is essential - and I have most the 2*'s at one cover going into their matches. It becomes a two vs. three when you scale that high, punishing you for leveling your characters.

Various38

My transition is completely on purpose. I could be fighting in the 4-5 star rank if I chose to level those characters. The problem is two fold. First, there was no stop gap of power between 4 and 5 like the 3 and 4 levels. It was necessary to have smooth transition of rosters. Second, the MMR kills it all when you do try and level up anything. Everything you do to get stronger makes the game harder and it shouldn't be that way just like SnowcaTT said.

I understand D3 really wants natural progression of a roster from people, but even in my case, it is hard not to get those characters leveled up after you see the leveled up damage numbers.

jobob

SnowcaTT wrote:

but only have one 5* and I have to disagree that 3*'s matter more - I basically don't even glance at 3* levels, they could be 266 (fully leveled) + boosted and I probably wouldn't notice until I wonder why their health is so high as I beat them down last. I'm only looking at the 5* level (and I see 5* in -every- matchup) and if they have a boosted 4*. And I'm dreading the events where I don't have the boosted 4*, and I'm punished for having leveled my characters

Again... If you're not transitioned to the 5* game... Then you're talking about a different situation. You only have 1 5*, of course 4* are relevant. But once you get 2 or 3, there won't be much use for your 4*. But the 3*s... They are the feature characters. You have no choice but to use them. And a 266 feature 3* can make a big difference sometimes, even in 5* PVP. Definitely bigger than a boosted 4*, since they are on the bench probably.

Cascad

5*? Not too much players can discuss this problem.
I have covered Wolverine4*, but what is the point. Need more 4* and Hulkbuster also or Rulk. Without it step on 4* ground is suiside (not sure wrote it correct). So just waiting other 4* cover and wait... wait... untill I grow my 4* and will get 1000 in PVP

kidicarus

I've left my 355 OML at 390 and my awkward 525 PHX at 370 for precisely this reason. I play for mostly 1300 progression in PVP and the best place I can get with 2 shields, and while I will munch on cupcakes - it's not a key part of the limited time I have playing (maybe 2 hrs?) PVP so no BCs for me. However, around the sub lvl 400 5* meta I find the boosted 4*s really do make a big impact. Heck my PVP Queue for Nefarious foes was dominated by the OML/Red Hulk/Carnage combo.

I have 17 Championed 4*s (all 3*s championed), and I have good odds that I will get a useful boosted 4* every week for PVP and PVE. EOTS? OML Locked out? No problem. I can still rely on my deep 4* roster.

Having said that, in regards to the 3*, while I like Switch and fist, I don't know what I'd do without IM40.

Buret0

jobob wrote:

I understand what you are saying, but you are talking about something completely different. Looks like you are in the 3-4* transition, so of course 4* are relevant. Soon they will form the backbone of your roster... But once you push past them, they will go on the shelf and see less use than your 3* in PVP. That's the problem... Once you hit "endgame," the 4*s go to the bench, and that's a shame. It's nice that the 3* get used, I just wish the 4* did too.

If you have multiple 5*s at level 450, you are beyond where most people are playing.

That being said, I took out a team of 450 5*s with my halfway covered OML, boosted 4 champ Rhulk, and an unboosted 4Pool in Nefarious tonight.

5*s are great, but the damage and AP generation of a champ boosted Rhulk augmented with OML strikes and a counter with 4Pool deal phenomenal damage, they just aren't as scary on D as a bunch of 5*s.

3*s on the other hand, even when boosted, just don't have the health or damage output to survive a 5*, and are worse on D.

PeterGibbons316

I agree with jobob. I'm getting far more value spending ISO on irrelevant 3* characters than even some pretty good 4* characters that I don't have champed (Thing, X-23, Nova, Pun, etc.) Even in Sim my A-team is usually Phx/OML/SWitch. SWitch just makes a much stronger support than most 4* characters. Since all the 3*s see play in PvP (and you regularly get PvP rewards for them before/during their events) it just makes a lot more sense to have them all champed compared to the 4*s.

I get a small amount of use from 4*s in PvE - but it's usually SWitch/IM40 that show up more than 4*s. It doesn't help that the absolute best PvE character (Jean Grey) is locked out for me since scaling typically requires me to use my 454 Jean Grey - Phoenix.

The one exception is Quake. I just champed her, and she is fantastic in PvE - especially with Phoenix/OML. Quake's ability to shake the board with a low chance of accidentally destroying your friendly strike tiles makes her very strong. And her green AoE packs a decent punch as well.

jobob

A 4* feature PVP event (again... a release) sure is a breath of fresh air.

REALLY wish we could get some more 4* PVP during the season, D3...

Stax the Foyer

jobob wrote:

A 4* feature PVP event (again... a release) sure is a breath of fresh air.

REALLY wish we could get some more 4* PVP during the season, D3...

Yeah, I'm actually playing this PvP for fun after getting to 1300. So nice to have something more than Cannon Fodder / OML / Phoenix.

Slarow

They simply need to make it so that each PVP has a featured 3* and a featured 4*. Your center character can be picked from:
1) A loaner version of the 3* (as is today)
2) Your own version of the 3* (as is today)
3) Your own version of the 4* (only change)

This single change (with nothing else changed) is the simplest way to bridge the current 4*/5* divide. With this change, teams that don't yet have a viable 5* can run a full 4* team and have a better chance vs 5*'s.