Does the AI Know, I Know, it Knows?

Yoik

I just wanted to try and clarify how much the matches we play against the AI are random. Random in the way it plays. Random in the way the tiles sit or colour’s drop down or powers are used etc etc etc.

Ofc if I am winning all is fine. I’m human and have an impressive selective memory for such things. But when the drops go against me that’s when the shouting and generalized expletives come out.

We have all been on the receiving end of a ridiculous cascade. Or a tile we are saving that just seems to want to be destroyed no matter what you do by the AI. That’s all a given. I just wanted to know how much of a match is pre-ordained.

Example.

In a recent event node. I think it was Sim. There was SW and Ice man and someone else. It was basically a stun fest if you didn’t get your powers off sharpish. I think it was Thing.

I think I was using OML, She Bore and maybe IM40. I can’t remember. Anyhow. So I’m getting wiped for a change. And it’s in a cycle of stun stun stunnity stun stun. My OML is stunned by SW. My She Bore is stunned by Ice and IM40 is dead Dave. Everybody’s Dead Dave.

Now the AI hasn’t enough AP for any power. Not even close. My She Thor and OML are pretty much full health. Normally you get a feel for a match and know that its game over. So you can retreat and save the time and re try. However I wasn’t able to do so.

Usually you can only “not” retreat in my experience if you’re going to die anyway in the next go for example because the AI is going to take you out with a power.

I had 5 goes on Bore and OML of stun before it was my turn. The AI had no AP left for doing powers. So I wasn’t going to die. On the next go or the second unless they had some fantastical cascade.

It wasn’t until it was going to be my go next ( Stun 5 ) that the fantastical cascade happened and they gained enough ap for more stuns and various other powers basically stunning me and taking me out after a few more turns without a go.

Now my question is. Did the AI know already know what was going to drop / cascade because it knew I had already lost 6 or 7 goes before it happened? If so then the way I associate a match going forward will change a lot. Because that would suggest that it is not as random as we think.

Or I was unable to retreat because the button wasn’t working and I don’t understand the rules of this button.

Or something else I don’t get or understand.

This isn’t technically a whine it’s more a look for clarification. I’d still play the game whatever as I have done for 900 days. It’s just something I’ve noticed more of recently as time has gone by.

mysticfire678

It's not the AI knew it was gonna defeat you ahead of time. Knew that it was gonna get a cascade from the match it made. Or really knew anything past the current board state. It's that the server already played out every single move, after you made your last unstunned move, in an instant. Then it was only a matter of showing you what happened, which requires a lot more time.

Yoik

Ah I see. So it is pre ordained.

Malcrof

Yoik wrote:

Ah I see. So it is pre ordained.

Just Skynet toying with you before they end everything.

wirius

Its all random. For some reason we like to think we always get the good side of random. Nope. Random means sometimes you get cascade stunned into oblivion. I've done it to the other side too. Randomness is typically done for an engaging experience so boredom doesn't set in. It also allows wild swings of emotion. So for example when you get the awesome cascade, you feel like a million bucks. Of course, when you're on the receiving end, you feel like ****, rage, post on the forums etc.

Working as intended.

tanis3303

Malcrof wrote:

Just Skynet toying with you before they end everything.

Believe it.

Jarvind

mysticfire678 wrote:

It's not the AI knew it was gonna defeat you ahead of time. Knew that it was gonna get a cascade from the match it made. Or really knew anything past the current board state. It's that the server already played out every single move, after you made your last unstunned move, in an instant. Then it was only a matter of showing you what happened, which requires a lot more time.

To clarify this a bit:

The AI doesn't "know" anything except how its current turn is going to end. Everything that happens on the AI's turn is calculated instantly when the turn begins - all the tiles moving and powers firing is just for the benefit of your poor, sluggish meatbrain. It's why you can't quit out of a match if you're going to lose during the current explosion of cascades and powers - to the game, the match is already over, so there is nothing to quit.

Calling it "AI" at all is kind of generous. It's really just a handful of "If X, then Y" instructions, which is why it makes seemingly stupid moves a lot of the time e.g. its blindness to L- and T-shaped match-5s. There was a blog a while back by one of the devs where he tweaked it to play more intelligently - firing powers in a logical order instead of just running down the color list, making all available match 5s, etc. Unsurprisingly his win rate against it went from the usual "almost always" to "a lot less" which he ascertained players would probably find infuriating.

Edit: changed "i.e." to "e.g." because I'm one of the seven people on the planet that actually care about the distinction

dsds

Sometime the developers like to take over for the ai and royally screw you by going in to the editor mode to control what comes out next to make ridiculous cascades, that kill you in a very short amount of time (this would explain the extra lag now). Then they all laugh about it and drink beer. Every time they read in the forums, that people are defending it as "working as intended" they laugh while lighting their cigars with hundred dollar bills. I am completely kidding... But it's fun to have a crazy imagination.

slidecage

i doubt they know much.. they could hit me for major damage but allow their other player to use the stones

David [Hi-Fi] Moore

Two posts have been deleted for stepping over the line. Please refrain from posting offensive comments. Thank you.

Eddiemon

Jarvind wrote:

The AI doesn't "know" anything except how its current turn is going to end. Everything that happens on the AI's turn is calculated instantly when the turn begins - all the tiles moving and powers firing is just for the benefit of your poor, sluggish meatbrain. It's why you can't quit out of a match if you're going to lose during the current explosion of cascades and powers - to the game, the match is already over, so there is nothing to quit.

Not exactly true. It appears that it actually calculates to when you next get a move. The distinction is that, as with the OP, I have experienced times when my party is stunned and I cannot retreat, and the AI will take 2 or 3 'turns' to actually wipe me out.

JVReal

Eddiemon wrote:

Jarvind wrote:

The AI doesn't "know" anything except how its current turn is going to end. Everything that happens on the AI's turn is calculated instantly when the turn begins - all the tiles moving and powers firing is just for the benefit of your poor, sluggish meatbrain. It's why you can't quit out of a match if you're going to lose during the current explosion of cascades and powers - to the game, the match is already over, so there is nothing to quit.

Not exactly true. It appears that it actually calculates to when you next get a move. The distinction is that, as with the OP, I have experienced times when my party is stunned and I cannot retreat, and the AI will take 2 or 3 'turns' to actually wipe me out.

Yeah, the AI only 'waits' for you to make a turn, if you don't have a turn for 5 moves, why would the AI wait for anything? The graphics just have to catch up to the moves. When you are doing something you've done a hundred times, do you have to think about every single step as you do it, or do you already know all the steps you are going to take and just wait to complete them as they are able to be completed?

ammenell wrote:

so it needs stepping over the line to get a red to post anything at all?

If his response is the kind of response you are looking to get. I would imagine you'd want something a little more productive.

Maceo511

A few months ago, I believe someone posted a thread where a D3 or Demiurge person explained the logic the AI uses. I'm too lazy to look for it, but it's out there.

PeterGibbons316

Maceo511 wrote:

A few months ago, I believe someone posted a thread where a D3 or Demiurge person explained the logic the AI uses. I'm too lazy to look for it, but it's out there.

It comes up pretty often (and usually gets ignored), but here is a link to it in my most recent attempt to demonstrate how the AI isn't cheating.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=44569#p527680

Maceo511

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

Maceo511 wrote:

A few months ago, I believe someone posted a thread where a D3 or Demiurge person explained the logic the AI uses. I'm too lazy to look for it, but it's out there.

It comes up pretty often (and usually gets ignored), but here is a link to it in my most recent attempt to demonstrate how the AI isn't cheating.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=44569#p527680

Thanks, that was the one I meant.

ammenell

JVReal wrote:

ammenell wrote:

so it needs stepping over the line to get a red to post anything at all?

If his response is the kind of response you are looking to get. I would imagine you'd want something a little more productive.

nah, im good.

combining the general refusal to publish crucial info ahead of important updates with the fact that post will get randomly deleted because of stepping over an imaginative line, i dont expect anything.