C/D Double-double cross should be conditional

20three

Didn't have enough space in the title to explain. Basically, double-double cross should only be allowed to be used if there are strike tiles on the board to steal. I mean, I'm capable of not using it when there are none, but the A.I's not. Because of this, you really should trash this team-up cause even though it could be useful, the a.i is gonna mess it up if they're playing for you.

In all honestly, it's not like small strength strike tiles are gonna make or break a match. It's more of the principle that there's an ability that has the potential to be fired off and it's gonna help the enemy, which is sort of ridiculous if an enemy with no strike tile creation potential challenges you. I'm a big champion in making Elektra better cause I already believe she is underrated as heck. (Also I have 5 covers of this ability and 1 for the others, so anything they can do to make her better would be greatly appreciated)

CNash

I'm broadly in agreement, except for the part where you say to "trash this team-up" - your team-up stock has no bearing at all on what team-ups the AI will use when defending. It will receive a random team-up and there's nothing you can do to change it.

lomgamer

So when oponent have no way to generate strike tiles, you have useless skill right?
They are not even that strong to actually matter, and if you cast it twice, you will get decent one, so where is a problem?

20three

lomgamer wrote:

So when oponent have no way to generate strike tiles, you have useless skill right?
They are not even that strong to actually matter, and if you cast it twice, you will get decent one, so where is a problem?

There's always that slight possibility that damage could end up costing you, you'd never know

Also if you're forced to use another purple user on your team like black widow, they'd waste ddc instead of dt

firethorne

While the ai logic is trash, the skill has a bit of utility once you do it multiple times. So, limiting the cases where you can do it in the first place just seems like making an already bad 4* even worse.

I'd rather see Electra get a quality overhaul, like they did for IM40. Make the bug where shadow step triggers for any team member a permanent change, and add some other effect to double cross, be it damage or ap steal. Basically anything to make it so the first one in a clear board isn't working entirely against you.

Mawtful

firethorne wrote:

I'd rather see Electra get a quality overhaul, like they did for IM40. Make the bug where shadow step triggers for any team member a permanent change, and add some other effect to double cross, be it damage or ap steal. Basically anything to make it so the first one in a clear board isn't working entirely against you.

The shadowstep bug was actually very interesting, mechanically. To say that you could prevent damage to your whole team sounds really powerful, but in practice it was actually very reasonable (IMO). For clarity, my Elektra is 4/3/5 - that's just the way the covers have come in. At Rank 3, I was getting only 3 SS trap tiles. At the time of the bug, 3* Thor was also boosted and fairly prevalent in a lot of the matches I played. So Shadowstep was great if somehow the enemy team managed to cascade into enough Green AP for CTS; I could prevent that AOE damage but that would use up all those traps, so I was exposed to other damage. Or, since Yellow/Red/Blue/Purple powers will fire before Green, other abilities would eat up those traps before the AI even got around to CTS.

Even at 5 tiles at Rank 5, you're likely only going to be preventing a burst of damage for 1 turn - and any ability which could cause a cascade is going to chip away at those trap tiles fairly quickly.

I also think there could be some interesting concepts that could be explored using DDX. One example might be that Elektra stuns herself (she "defects" to the other team) but with a passive that, while stunned, Elektra steals AP from the enemy (1 AP for every match, similar to Mystique's shapeshift).

PuceMoose

Agreed, the bug with Elektra make her feel a lot more fun, fair, and usable.
Regarding Double Double Cross, I'd love to see it turned into a high-powered variant of Yelena's one-star power - turn a selected enemy-owned special tile into a weak enemy owned strike tile, then generate a friendly strike tile, the power of which is based on how many special enemy tiles there are.

Pylgrim

There just shouldn't be downside to that ability of a 4*. If no strike tiles on the board she should create them for your team, if opposing strike tiles exist, steal them, and always improve existing friendly tiles. Maybe make it able to work with attack tiles as well. Hell, I have just improved this ability 4 times now and I still think it is unremarkable.

Polares

Pylgrim wrote:

There just shouldn't be downside to that ability of a 4*. If no strike tiles on the board she should create them for your team, if opposing strike tiles exist, steal them, and always improve existing friendly tiles. Maybe make it able to work with attack tiles as well. Hell, I have just improved this ability 4 times now and I still think it is unremarkable.

I agree completely. This ability must be changed to "if the other team has strike tiles, steal them and make them stronger, if not, create some for you"

If you think about it is really silly that you need to first cast the ability to create some strikes for the other team so then you can cast the abilty again to steal them (!!!!!)

Akari

Double Double Cross should target Attack or Protect tiles as well. Instantly improved.

Also, Elektra was featured char in Sim, and not a single one of the opponents in her essential matches used any strike tiles at all (well, Antman, but that's on CD, and they'd use IW's yellow first every time). Way to handicap us, D3.

mpqr7

DDC is perfect as is. No changes required. Cast it with oml, you get two strike tiles. Cast it twice, you get great strike tiles!

Polares

OJSP wrote:

Polares wrote:

If you think about it is really silly that you need to first cast the ability to create some strikes for the other team so then you can cast the abilty again to steal them (!!!!!)

I think that's why it's called Double-Double Cross, not simply Double Cross, isn't it?

I guess, a silly name for a silly ability

mpqr7 wrote:

DDC is perfect as is. No changes required. Cast it with oml, you get two strike tiles. Cast it twice, you get great strike tiles!

But you shouldn't need to cast any ability twice to get positive results! Basically what you are saying is if you play against a strike tile creator is great. Yeah sure, but if the other team doesnt create strike tiles? Then it is worth nothing, like most of the times when she is essential. If it would create its own strike tiles when none are on the board it would be a much better ability, ALWAYS useful, not just sometimes useful. And it would make his red much more powerful.

I dont understand how you can say 'leave it like that' when Elektra is a char that it is always in the bottom of all classifications... "Improve an ability so it is always useful? Nah I pass, I prefer it to be useful just sometimes" (!!!!!!!)

IamTheDanger

While it's true that DDC would be better if it created tiles for your team if there are none, I think it's fine like it is. Not perfect, just fine. Could still be better, but quite useful as is. I've used it against a certain Old Man that can be quite a pain. I saved all my Ap until Logan put his strike tiles out, then I cast SS and 2 BoD's. With the traps out, she stole all 3. (only possible with 5 covers in DDC). His strengthened tiles, now mine, added to her red trap and my match damage. It was game over at that point. She may not be perfect, but against toons like OML, Panther, Blade, Sentry or Daken for example, she can literally be a life saver. Especially OML. If he has enough yellow to change, then on his next turn he'll use it. So those SS traps are very handy at that point.

With DDC as is, it adds a bit of strategy to the game. There are several characters with abilities that are only good in certain situations. Yes, it can be a pain when they are essential and the enemies you face make the ability useless. But as with other conditional abilities, it can be very effective in the right situation.

And given the history of character changes, do you really want to risk making her go from sometimes okay to never? Some changes were good IMO, like IM40 or C. Mags. But others, not so much. If they made it so that it added strike tiles if none exist and left everything else exactly as it is, then fine. That would be great. As long as that's the only thing changed.

Berserk_Al

My Electra is only 2/1/1, but that was fun enough now that I was forced to use her. She makes a nice rainbow with Patch and IM40. A Berserker Rage, followed by Double Double Cross, gives you enough power so that Best There Is can kill basicall anything. Including, as I discovered, a full health Devil Dinosaur.

Pylgrim

mpqr7 wrote:

DDC is perfect as is. No changes required. Cast it with oml, you get two strike tiles. Cast it twice, you get great strike tiles!

While you use 14 purple to get 3 strike tiles, other characters win the game. Obviously, if you bring in OML, even Bagman becomes a beast. The design of the ability is fine, but its power level, compared to most other 4*s is extremely low. Then you factor in how conditional it is...

CrookedKnight

If Elektra were a better character overall, DDC as a flawed but situationally helpful ability would be fine. As is, she needs something.

Dayv

The potential for a wasted use of this skill may already have been taken into account with the low AP cost. Some skills are completely useless againt an enemy who doesn't create a specific type of tile -- in those cases this one at least has a way around it.

Further, there are ways to use enemy strike tiles to your advantage. Use her with 4* Venom, Squirrel girl (ok, bad example, they're both purple skills), or Doctor Doom and even that "wasted" use could be seen as an opportunity to set up other skills. Heck, increasing enemy damage slightly might be just the thing you need to trigger reaction skills more frequently on Captain Marvel, Red Hulk, one of the Deadpools, etc.

These might not be the most exciting combos, but it's a way to think outside of the box. It's certainly not my favorite skill, but I wouldn't call it broken.

tanis3303

Elektra/Patch/Doc Ock. Enjoy

Pylgrim

No, no. Cute little applications like those are fine for 3*s and indeed welcome because they are not supposed to compete in power. But in 4* land we have now powers to directly compare, all of Nova's. Behold (max values used):

Power Cost First use result Second use result
Double Double Cross 7 AP Gives opponent three weak strike tiles. IF there are still enemy strike tiles left, gives you two (three with a condition) 280 strike tiles.
Takeoff 6 AP Gives you three 198 strike tiles. Disables the target for two turns and deals 4.5k damage
Nova Blast 7 AP Deals 3k damage plus two 198 strike tiles. Same.
Danger Zone 8 AP Gives you four 221 strike tiles. Same. Potentially deals 8k damage if you used any of his powers before.

Yes, I know that in the niche case where the opponent already has placed strike tiles DDC may come ahead the other powers. But that's precisely a niche case, while all of Nova's powers are relevant, always (and note that Nova is a quite good 4* but nowhere near a top one). Given how weak her red is, she needs her purple to be a decent, always useful ability.