Zulaport Cutthroat (poll)

BigMao

This is another Black creature that seems to be overpriced. Drana's Emissary is a comparable Black creature that is less expensive and (in my opinion) significantly stronger.

zaann85

Common vs Uncommon. Also they have to balance mana costs. In paper Magic you can't gain 15 mana on your first turn. Costs for some cards are overpriced for the effect they give, and some fone tuning vould go a long way for sure.

BigMao

You have a good point (common vs. uncommon), so it's not a very fair comparison, I agree.

Hibernum_JC

There's another reason why this is costed higher, too.

This type of effect is an effect that can be triggered multiple times per turn. Drana's Emissary is automatically triggered and can only trigger once per turn.

Zulaport is like that because it can combo rather nicely with all the life gain effects in Black. That's the intent behind the card, anyway.

Morphis

Hibernum_JC wrote:

There's another reason why this is costed higher, too.

This type of effect is an effect that can be triggered multiple times per turn. Drana's Emissary is automatically triggered and can only trigger once per turn.

Zulaport is like that because it can combo rather nicely with all the life gain effects in Black. That's the intent behind the card, anyway.

That could justify 12 mana cost at most since it has such a small body.

Edit: nevermind I did not notice is is common. Commons in this game are meant to be garbage.

shteev

I love the 'I don't use this card, but I see how it could be useful' option. 'I'm never going to play this card because it's rubbish, but some chump might, and then I will beat them in QuickBattle'.

alextfish

Hibernum_JC wrote:

There's another reason why this is costed higher, too.

This type of effect is an effect that can be triggered multiple times per turn. Drana's Emissary is automatically triggered and can only trigger once per turn.

Zulaport is like that because it can combo rather nicely with all the life gain effects in Black. That's the intent behind the card, anyway.

Presumably you mean all the cards that trigger off lifegain in black? That was what I wanted to play. But I still found 18 mana so outrageously overpriced for a 2/2 that won't even reliably trigger every turn that I couldn't bring myself to play it.

If it were a 2/2 with lifelink, that'd gain about 3 times as much life, and even that'd be pretty much unplayable at 18 mana.

majincob

Is there a difference between casting a creature and a creature coming into play on your side? With hangarback and him out, do all the tokens trigger it? It would make a black/green planeswalker pretty attractive.

span_argoman

majincob wrote:

Is there a difference between casting a creature and a creature coming into play on your side? With hangarback and him out, do all the tokens trigger it? It would make a black/green planeswalker pretty attractive.

Just tested this using Zulaport and Revenant. The Zombie tokens do trigger his ability. So token summoning is Zulaport Cutthroat's best friend.

Best scenario I can think of is Zulaport Cutthroat, Defiant Bloodlord and Hangarback Walker on the table. Destroy Hangarback Walker through the means of your choice. Deal 48 damage to the opponent. Alternatively, Bloodbond Vampire could stand to gain +8/+8.

*edit*
Don't forget the Awaken cards.
Ruinous Path Awaken 12 for 6 1/1 Swamp Elementals
Rising Miasma Awaken 9 for 3 1/1 Swamp Elementals
Mire's Malice Awaken 12 for 3 1/1 Swamp Elementals

He's really not as bad as you guys think.

shteev

span_argoman wrote:

Best scenario I can think of is Zulaport Cutthroat, Defiant Bloodlord and Hangarback Walker on the table.

For the low, low cost of 57 mana.

span_argoman

shteev wrote:

span_argoman wrote:

Best scenario I can think of is Zulaport Cutthroat, Defiant Bloodlord and Hangarback Walker on the table.

For the low, low cost of 57 mana.

Are you kidding? This is Black we're talking about. Liliana doesn't pay the full mana cost to summon creatures.

Plus Zulaport Cutthroat and Defiant Bloodlord stay there for repeated use.

Hibernum_JC

alextfish wrote:

Hibernum_JC wrote:

There's another reason why this is costed higher, too.

This type of effect is an effect that can be triggered multiple times per turn. Drana's Emissary is automatically triggered and can only trigger once per turn.

Zulaport is like that because it can combo rather nicely with all the life gain effects in Black. That's the intent behind the card, anyway.

Presumably you mean all the cards that trigger off lifegain in black? That was what I wanted to play. But I still found 18 mana so outrageously overpriced for a 2/2 that won't even reliably trigger every turn that I couldn't bring myself to play it.

If it were a 2/2 with lifelink, that'd gain about 3 times as much life, and even that'd be pretty much unplayable at 18 mana.

That is the point, yes. Cards that trigger off life gain in Black.

18 mana is on par for a common with such an effect. Anything that summons multiple tokens is very strong with this card - it's also meant to combo off Awaken so that you can effectively deal damage, heal yourself and potentially have another effect that triggers off life gain.

shteev

span_argoman wrote:

shteev wrote:

span_argoman wrote:

Best scenario I can think of is Zulaport Cutthroat, Defiant Bloodlord and Hangarback Walker on the table.

For the low, low cost of 57 mana.

Are you kidding? This is Black we're talking about. Liliana doesn't pay the full mana cost to summon creatures.

Plus Zulaport Cutthroat and Defiant Bloodlord stay there for repeated use.

They do against any opponent who plays no Defenders. Or Berserkers. Or creature destruction. Or direct damage. Or bounce.

Plus, what kind of player are we taking about here who has to play common cards for which the power level is 'understandably' low, but has access to Defiant Bloodlord and Hangarback Walker?

But by all means, you head into QuickBattle with your Zulaport Cutthroat deck, and post your winstreak here.

I imagine JC will have some data on just how many games Zulaport Cuttroat has won so far, and I'm willing to bet it's a pretty low number.

Let's do 'Tide Drifter' next. I'm dying to hear about how that one can be the lynchpin of a powerful deck.

soultwist

This interaction is with JC about cards and usages and abilities is pretty cool. It's too bad its discussing common cards. Sure a bunch of them suck but they are commons after all.

BigMao

I just subbed in Zulaport Cutthroat in Liliana's deck, and it was actually quite fun. I don't have Hangarback Walker, Ruinous Path or Defiant Bloodlord - but it was still fun to bring out four Thopters with Foundry of the Consuls and watch Bloodbond Vampire get stronger. I may revisit this when I get some of the above cards.

span_argoman

shteev wrote:

span_argoman wrote:

shteev wrote:

span_argoman wrote:

Best scenario I can think of is Zulaport Cutthroat, Defiant Bloodlord and Hangarback Walker on the table.

For the low, low cost of 57 mana.

Are you kidding? This is Black we're talking about. Liliana doesn't pay the full mana cost to summon creatures.

Plus Zulaport Cutthroat and Defiant Bloodlord stay there for repeated use.

They do against any opponent who plays no Defenders. Or Berserkers. Or creature destruction. Or direct damage. Or bounce.

Plus, what kind of player are we taking about here who has to play common cards for which the power level is 'understandably' low, but has access to Defiant Bloodlord and Hangarback Walker?

But by all means, you head into QuickBattle with your Zulaport Cutthroat deck, and post your winstreak here.

I imagine JC will have some data on just how many games Zulaport Cuttroat has won so far, and I'm willing to bet it's a pretty low number.

Let's do 'Tide Drifter' next. I'm dying to hear about how that one can be the lynchpin of a powerful deck.

Defenders - Same problem that any other deck faces. I don't see how it's more damaging against this deck. Plus it's not like Black has no creature removal. Ruinous Path is already in there for the Awaken, and most will run Unholy Hunger in their black decks.
Berserkers - Same as defenders.
Creature destruction / direct damage / bounce - If you have Zulaport, Bloodlord (5/6) and an 8/8 Thopter, I wonder which one the AI will target. As far as I know it's the 8/8. Which just gives you an empty slot to summon out more stuff.

Scour from Existence is a common.
Smite the Monstrous is a common.
Enshrouding Mist is a common.
Disperse is a common.
Nissa's Pilgrimage is a common.
Fertile Thicket is a common.
Sure Strike is a common.

Being common just means they're likely to be worse, but it doesn't mean they're definitely bad. People still use some common cards. I'm not arguing that this card is amazing. It is still overcosted for what essentially is a combo card. But for all those people who voted "I don't see how this card could be useful in its current state", I'm giving an example of how it can be used to be decent.

And I don't have Hangarback Walker or Ruinous Path to see the combo in action. If I did, I think it would be amusing to see it pulled off. But it's been discussed for long enough around here that Hangarback is one of the best cards for Liliana cause she can cheat it into play, destroy for Thopters and cheat back into play again. These two new cards just provide an additional bonus if you're already down that route.

In any case for QB you need not only a good win rate but also a fast deck. Don't think a deck with Zulaport will be very consistent in terms of speed.

Just looked at Tide Drifter. Don't see any hope for that one either lol.

soultwist

And I don't have Hangarback Walker or Ruinous Path to see the combo in action. If I did, I think it would be amusing to see it

So I am lucky enough to have those two cards, I threw it all together and tested a bit. Honestly it might be too much mana and too contrived to focus on those together, idk. I just grabbed a random story battle and of course it was one that spun out 1/1 defenders so that rules out casting zulaport first. If the walker comes out first then you can't have any other creature or dark petition won't function. Also creatures like awaken will be summoned after zula so zula is more likely dealing defenders/berserkers. It looks like it would be fun but I haven't given it enough time to work out the best plan. I think molten nursery (red) would be a lot more fun with the walker.

While trying to match up cards it looks like blacks retreat support, blood cursed knight, and drana are a really fun combo.

span_argoman

soultwist wrote:

And I don't have Hangarback Walker or Ruinous Path to see the combo in action. If I did, I think it would be amusing to see it

So I am lucky enough to have those two cards, I threw it all together and tested a bit. Honestly it might be too much mana and too contrived to focus on those together, idk. I just grabbed a random story battle and of course it was one that spun out 1/1 defenders so that rules out casting zulaport first. If the walker comes out first then you can't have any other creature or dark petition won't function. Also creatures like awaken will be summoned after zula so zula is more likely dealing defenders/berserkers. It looks like it would be fun but I haven't given it enough time to work out the best plan. I think molten nursery (red) would be a lot more fun with the walker.

While trying to match up cards it looks like blacks retreat support, blood cursed knight, and drana are a really fun combo.

If I get those cards, my idea would be this:
Zulaport Cutthroat
Defiant Bloodlord
Bloodbond Vampire
Hangarback Walker
Smouldering Marsh
Sunken Hollow
Ruinous Path
Dark Petition
Unholy Hunger
Prism Ring

The idea is you never put mana into Hangarback or Zulaport. Unless the rest of your cards are already filled up then well why not. So Hangarback shouldn't be coming out that soon. The best way to summon them is destroying them with your first ability following by Dark Petition or the third ability. Defiant Bloodlord is flying and actually worth its mana cost so that's fine to summon out normally. Ditto for Bloodbond Vampire.

I would particularly like to see what happens if you destroy Hangarback Walker (with a Zulaport and Defiant Bloodlord out) using an Awakened Ruinous Path. If they allow you to summon the 6 swamp elementals after the 8 thopters, we're looking at 84 damage at once. Or 90 with Prism Ring out. Of course that's obviously an ideal scenario.

I've been testing in story with Zulaport and Bloodbond like BigMao. It is kind of slow but summoning out creatures hasn't been that big an issue for me.

alextfish

Hibernum_JC wrote:

alextfish wrote:

Presumably you mean all the cards that trigger off lifegain in black? That was what I wanted to play. But I still found 18 mana so outrageously overpriced for a 2/2 that won't even reliably trigger every turn that I couldn't bring myself to play it.

If it were a 2/2 with lifelink, that'd gain about 3 times as much life, and even that'd be pretty much unplayable at 18 mana.

That is the point, yes. Cards that trigger off life gain in Black.

18 mana is on par for a common with such an effect. Anything that summons multiple tokens is very strong with this card - it's also meant to combo off Awaken so that you can effectively deal damage, heal yourself and potentially have another effect that triggers off life gain.

Oh... okay. Yes, I hadn't expected the token synergies, because the wording on the card says "cast". Making creature tokens is completely different from casting creature spells. So I also hadn't realised that Awaken would trigger this.

Once I realise the card's effect is completely different to what the card's wording says... yes, I can see this card is a roleplayer in certain combo decks. All the Awaken cards I have seem painfully overcosted as well so I've never tried them, but it's possible some of the rares are more reasonably priced (I haven't got many BFZ rares). OK, I withdraw my objection to this card, and change my vote to "I see how it could be useful".

(Except it'd be great if its text could be fixed to not say "cast", because making tokens is not casting creatures.)

Hibernum_JC

alextfish wrote:

Hibernum_JC wrote:

alextfish wrote:

Presumably you mean all the cards that trigger off lifegain in black? That was what I wanted to play. But I still found 18 mana so outrageously overpriced for a 2/2 that won't even reliably trigger every turn that I couldn't bring myself to play it.

If it were a 2/2 with lifelink, that'd gain about 3 times as much life, and even that'd be pretty much unplayable at 18 mana.

That is the point, yes. Cards that trigger off life gain in Black.

18 mana is on par for a common with such an effect. Anything that summons multiple tokens is very strong with this card - it's also meant to combo off Awaken so that you can effectively deal damage, heal yourself and potentially have another effect that triggers off life gain.

Oh... okay. Yes, I hadn't expected the token synergies, because the wording on the card says "cast". Making creature tokens is completely different from casting creature spells. So I also hadn't realised that Awaken would trigger this.

Once I realise the card's effect is completely different to what the card's wording says... yes, I can see this card is a roleplayer in certain combo decks. All the Awaken cards I have seem painfully overcosted as well so I've never tried them, but it's possible some of the rares are more reasonably priced (I haven't got many BFZ rares). OK, I withdraw my objection to this card, and change my vote to "I see how it could be useful".

(Except it'd be great if its text could be fixed to not say "cast", because making tokens is not casting creatures.)

I took notice of this and will update the text so it is much clearer.

Awaken gets cheaper with rarity, so Rare cards with Awaken do not cost as much.

jollyrogercjf

Why not just print the card as a rally effect? Lower the mana cost to say 15 with rally that would still be a common but perhaps a more playable one. I'm going to have to start plotting the cards to get a sense of what your design bible is, this card always felt undesirable to me in it's current state. The cardboard version of this actually triggers off death right?