Advantages of Gideon Mk. II over Original Gideon?

Jazzpha

Hey everyone,

I currently have Gideon maxed out, and am running the following deck:

Knight of the White Orchid
Kytheon's Irregulars
Iroas's Champion
Battlefield Forge
Serene Steward
Ampyran Tactician
Anointer of Champions
Something Oracle (the 3/3 renown 2 with lifelink)
Supression Bonds
The Pegasus 5/6 for 12 that increases support costs

As long as I get the board and hold it early, it usually means I win automatically barring a massive board flip. Is there any reason that Gideon Mk. II would out-perform this deck, or does its strength lie in building a different kind of synergistic White deck? Just trying to see if I should drop the crystals on the new version of Gideon, or use them for something else.

Thanks!

span_argoman

Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, as his name blatantly hints at is about building around the new Ally/Rally mechanic in BFZ.

You're talking about running creatures like Hero of Goma Fada, Resolute Blademaster, Veteran Warleader, Serene Steward and Lantern Scout to make use of Rally abilities. His second planeswalker ability summons 4 2/2 Ally tokens at level 4 which works to trigger Rally abilities, notably the +2/+2 (+8/+8!) for Veteran Warleader. The third ability (+5/+5 to all Ally creatures for 12) is also strictly superior to Origin Gideon's second ability (+4/+4 to all for 15) as long as you only use Ally tokens.

Origins Gideon on the other hand doesn't have anything to contribute to an Ally deck, and is more suited to a deck type like the one you listed. If I may comment, your deck has too many creatures. 8 creatures fighting for 3 creature slots is a lot of dead draws in your deck. Also Consul's Lieutenant is a strong creature, probably better than Ampryn Tactician or Anointer of Champions and arguably stronger than Knight of the White Orchid (for Origins Gideon). If you drop a creature you can also add in a spell like Scour from Existence or Smite the Monstrous to give you a way to gain back board control when you are behind. If you don't have those, Swift Reckoning works with Suppression Bonds for the same effect.

majincob

span_argoman wrote:

Consul's Lieutenant is a strong creature, probably better than Ampryn Tactician or Anointer of Champions and arguably stronger than Knight of the White Orchid (for Origins Gideon).

Good call, I forgot to tweak my Gideon I deck since leveling it from 1 to 60.

Jazzpha

@span argoman:

Thanks a bunch for the deck advice! I guess I'm just paranoid of getting my board cleared and having nothing to refill with, since I've done that to so many people as Chandra hahaha.

I swapped out annointer and ampyrn for enshrouding mist and brawler's plate. Seems like a solid synergy. I used to run swift reckoning, but it was too situational and supression bonds tends to get erased within a turn or two.

shteev

Anyone seen, or built, an Ally deck which is better than, or at least as good as, a deck just full of great white cards? The problem with building all Allies, it would seem to me, is that you miss out on the chance of playing some really top class white creatures, like Relic Seeker, Consul's Lietenant, and War Oracle. Serene Steward is an amazing card but even that seems like it would play better in a deck featuring War Oracle, and even Enlightened Ascetic, which I think is a pretty good card in Gideon I, since your route to victory is most often just to put any 3 creatures on the table and then activate his second ability.

I don't own him yet, but I'd have thought Gideon II's big advantage over Gideon I would be his second ability, which is very cheap for what you get, and, crucially, lets you put a creature on the table by just spending loyalty... Gideon I can (sometimes) find himself in trouble against Chandra because she can burn every creature card he draws to death, usually *before* Gideon has a chance to activate his loyalty powers to pump up his creatures, leaving Gideon with a bunch of useless loyalty points he can't spend.

EDHdad

Gideon Ally of Zendikar has an advantage in that you don't need to have creatures in your hand to have creatures on the board.

Disadvantage is that his creature pumping ability only cares about Allies. In Magic, Allies are unique to the plane of Zendikar. They will probably only appear in Battle for Zendikar and Oath of the Gatewatch. They will not appear in the next set, Shadows over Innistrad, and possibly will never appear again.

In paper Magic, Allies are spread around the five colors of Magic. The flavor is that all these different types of creatures are uniting together against the Eldrazi Menace. But in this game, the restriction on white color identity means that you probably won't be able to take full advantage of this much going forward. Though it is being strongly hinted in the current story line that we might see more Eldrazi sooner rather than later.

span_argoman

Jazzpha wrote:

I swapped out annointer and ampyrn for enshrouding mist and brawler's plate. Seems like a solid synergy. I used to run swift reckoning, but it was too situational and supression bonds tends to get erased within a turn or two.

Brawler's Plate isn't that great for Origins Gideon cause the first ability giving Flying+Vigilance helps you to filter out opponent creatures already. Put that on Knights of the White Orchid or Consul's Lieutenant (you really should include this if you have it) more or less blocks out any damage.

And the idea is to cast Suppression Bond and Swift Reckoning in the same turn. Any more turns that SB has an effect is a bonus. Alternatively Encircling Fissure is a better companion card to Swift Reckoning, giving you choice for the kill without the chance for continued disabling. Otherwise there's Smite the Monstrous or Scour from Existence.

shteev wrote:

Anyone seen, or built, an Ally deck which is better than, or at least as good as, a deck just full of great white cards? The problem with building all Allies, it would seem to me, is that you miss out on the chance of playing some really top class white creatures, like Relic Seeker, Consul's Lietenant, and War Oracle. Serene Steward is an amazing card but even that seems like it would play better in a deck featuring War Oracle, and even Enlightened Ascetic, which I think is a pretty good card in Gideon I, since your route to victory is most often just to put any 3 creatures on the table and then activate his second ability.

I don't have the cards but try:
Lantern Scout
Veteran Warleader
Serene Steward
Kor Entanglers
Swift Reckoning
Encircling Fissure
Smite the Monstrous / Scour from Existence
Ondu Rising
+2 more cards of your choice

Lantern Scout and Ondu Rising give plenty of lifelink to fuel Serene Steward. You'll also gain more life than you lose in most cases.Veteran Warleader synergises very nicely with Gideon's second ability and your other cheap Ally creatures.
Swift Reckoning and Smite/Scour to clear the board.
Probably throw in mana/gem supports to speed things up and it's a ridiculously self-reinforcing deck.

I would say that right now Ally Gideon is the next most threatening AI to play after AI Chandra.

madwren

I run this deck as a pretty much auto-win against the AI, which of course features a lot of white decks:

Creatures: 4
Expedition Envoy
Serene Steward
Kor Entanglers
Kor Castigator

Spells: 5
Smite the Monstrous
Scour from Existence
Enshrouding Mist
Encircling Fissure
Alchemist's Vial

Support: 1
Quarantine Field

If I had a Lantern Scout, that would go in the place of the Castigator.

Gideon-Z's advantages are:
1. He's fast--everything is cheap, and +2 to three colors means he's an efficient matcher
2. He doesn't need mana to generate creatures; in fact, sometimes taking the loyalty match is the optimal move
3. His abilities are extremely useful--the 4/4 vigilance guy acts as removal, and with an Enshrouding Mist can clear the opponent's board; the 8/8 creature for 9 loyalty is the best deal in the game; the 15 points of extra creature damage for 12 ramps your guys

The deck's advantage is that it's cheap and resilient. If you get a Quarantine Field out early, you pretty much win the game, since your creatures are generally cheaper even with the +12, and since you can make 8/8 creatures with a handful of loyalty.

Flaricus

running very close to the same deck as Madwen, only have Goma Fada in there.

here is what I am running right now, been changing it up here and there.
Creatures:
Relic seeker
Goma Fada
Cliffside Lookout
Kor Entanglers

Spells:
Unified Front
Enshrouding Mist

Artifiacts/supports (whatever)
Prairie Stream
Retreat to Emeria
Shambling Vent
Ally Encampment

I go back and forth with Smite the Monstrous/scour from existence, Goma Fada MOST of the time hits the board to clear fairly quick, If any of you have some thoughts, like to hear them.
It still needs work,

Zelandoni

Vet Warleader is just amazing, too. Cast it and it's a 3/3, then next turn use the second ability and get an 8/8 while pumping Warleader up to 11/11. Then it attacks and gains first strike and vigilance, blocking and killing almost everything.

Flaricus

Ya veteran Warleader is a beast. Love the Rally mechanic.

mixed bag

Thought I'd post up my deck since I got Lantern Scout out of a daily booster yesterday.

Creatures

1. Veteran Warleader
2. Lantern Scout
3. Serene Steward
4. Kor Entanglers

Supports

5. Retreat to Emeria
6. Prairie Stream
7. Canopy Vista

Spells

8. Scour from Existence
9. Smite the Monstrous
10. Ondu Rising

So far, its doing very well. Very easy to get creatures out and lots of lifelink! Puts a fast agro deck (Chandra) away very easily.

EDHdad

Just got to play with Gideon II today and I like him a lot.

The first ability (make a 4/4 hasty dude with vigilance until your next turn) can be used to punch 4 damage or to do 4 damage to your opponent's 1st attacker. Also, when it dies, it triggers Murder Investigation.

The second ability (make an 8/8 dude for 9 loyalty) is a beating, and is the ability I'm most likely to spam. The real beauty here is that you can run a creature-light deck and still race your opponent. Scour from Existence, Smite the Monstrous, Gideon's Reproach, and other removal spells can be powered up and kept in your hand without any loss of tempo.

The third ability (give +5/+5 to each ally you control for 12 loyalty) is probably not very relevant. For 9, you could just create another 8/8 ally. But if you do ever wind up with 3 allies on the field, it might be worth while.

Right now, the only 3 creatures I'm running are War Oracle(lifelink), Enlightened Ascetic (lifelink) and Serene Steward (whenever you gain life, the first creature you control gets +1/+1).

I'd also been playing Knightly Valor and Murder Investigation, which can create creatures, but I might wind up cutting Murder Investigation.

It should be noted that Gideon II can create 5 mana with 3 different matches, but cannot create 6 mana with any one match. This makes some 6 and 12 mana cards less attractive, and makes some 5 and 10 mana cards more attractive. But I haven't fully explored this yet.

madwren

EDHdad wrote:

Just got to play with Gideon II today and I like him a lot.

The first ability (make a 4/4 hasty dude with vigilance until your next turn) can be used to punch 4 damage or to do 4 damage to your opponent's 1st attacker. Also, when it dies, it triggers Murder Investigation.

The second ability (make an 8/8 dude for 9 loyalty) is a beating, and is the ability I'm most likely to spam. The real beauty here is that you can run a creature-light deck and still race your opponent. Scour from Existence, Smite the Monstrous, Gideon's Reproach, and other removal spells can be powered up and kept in your hand without any loss of tempo.

The third ability (give +5/+5 to each ally you control for 12 loyalty) is probably not very relevant. For 9, you could just create another 8/8 ally. But if you do ever wind up with 3 allies on the field, it might be worth while.

Right now, the only 3 creatures I'm running are War Oracle(lifelink), Enlightened Ascetic (lifelink) and Serene Steward (whenever you gain life, the first creature you control gets +1/+1).

I'd also been playing Knightly Valor and Murder Investigation, which can create creatures, but I might wind up cutting Murder Investigation.

It should be noted that Gideon II can create 5 mana with 3 different matches, but cannot create 6 mana with any one match. This makes some 6 and 12 mana cards less attractive, and makes some 5 and 10 mana cards more attractive. But I haven't fully explored this yet.

Just to expand on your post, the 12 loyalty ability is very useful in more creature-heavy versions, For example, mine, which likes to abuse Kor Entangler.

With three creatures on the board, using the 12 loyalty ability generates +15 in damage in that and subsequent turns.

Using the 9 loyalty ability replaces one of those creatures. Not only are you losing tempo by doing so, but you're only netting a small net increase in damage from the board state.

This is also true when you only have two creatures--you're either generating a +8 for 8 more damage on turns X+1, etc., or you're generating +10 for 10 more damage on X, X+1, and so on. However, depending on the opponent's creatures or board state, sometimes creating the 8/8 is better (i.e. facing a 6/6 Spider, you'd rather have an 8/8 than boost a 2/1 to 7/6)

Generally, however, I use the second ability if I have 1 creature on the board, and the third if I have two or three creatures on the board.

BassMuffinFIve

madwren wrote:

EDHdad wrote:

Just got to play with Gideon II today and I like him a lot.

The first ability (make a 4/4 hasty dude with vigilance until your next turn) can be used to punch 4 damage or to do 4 damage to your opponent's 1st attacker. Also, when it dies, it triggers Murder Investigation.

The second ability (make an 8/8 dude for 9 loyalty) is a beating, and is the ability I'm most likely to spam. The real beauty here is that you can run a creature-light deck and still race your opponent. Scour from Existence, Smite the Monstrous, Gideon's Reproach, and other removal spells can be powered up and kept in your hand without any loss of tempo.

The third ability (give +5/+5 to each ally you control for 12 loyalty) is probably not very relevant. For 9, you could just create another 8/8 ally. But if you do ever wind up with 3 allies on the field, it might be worth while.

Right now, the only 3 creatures I'm running are War Oracle(lifelink), Enlightened Ascetic (lifelink) and Serene Steward (whenever you gain life, the first creature you control gets +1/+1).

I'd also been playing Knightly Valor and Murder Investigation, which can create creatures, but I might wind up cutting Murder Investigation.

It should be noted that Gideon II can create 5 mana with 3 different matches, but cannot create 6 mana with any one match. This makes some 6 and 12 mana cards less attractive, and makes some 5 and 10 mana cards more attractive. But I haven't fully explored this yet.

Just to expand on your post, the 12 loyalty ability is very useful in more creature-heavy versions, For example, mine, which likes to abuse Kor Entangler.

With three creatures on the board, using the 12 loyalty ability generates +15 in damage in that and subsequent turns.

Using the 9 loyalty ability replaces one of those creatures. Not only are you losing tempo by doing so, but you're only netting a small net increase in damage from the board state.

This is also true when you only have two creatures--you're either generating a +8 for 8 more damage on turns X+1, etc., or you're generating +10 for 10 more damage on X, X+1, and so on. However, depending on the opponent's creatures or board state, sometimes creating the 8/8 is better (i.e. facing a 6/6 Spider, you'd rather have an 8/8 than boost a 2/1 to 7/6)

Generally, however, I use the second ability if I have 1 creature on the board, and the third if I have two or three creatures on the board.

I play Gideon exactly the same way. If I have only 1 creature out, I make an 8/8. If I have 2 allies out, I make them +5/+5. His abilities are really strong.

Also, I know that Gideon's ability makes creatures, but only having 3 in your deck seems a bit low, especially with the poor quality of the ones you have. I would play any ally over Enlightened Ascetic. Ally synergy in the deck is stronger than the life gain synergy. Relic Seeker is great in any white deck. Consul's Lieutenant is great in any white deck, etc.

EDHdad

Thanks for all the great tips! I managed to rack up 100 wins in a row with a combination of Ob Nixilis and Gideon II.

My current Gideon list:

Brawler's Plate

Enlightened Ascetic

Gideon's Reproach

Knightly Valor

Relic Seeker

Scour from Existence

Serene Steward

Smite the Monstrous

Sword of the Animist

War Oracle

***

Current Ob Nixils deck:

Blazing Hellhound

Despoiler of Souls

Fleshbag Marauder

Hagra Sharpshooter

Read the Bones

Reave Soul

Scour from Existence

Unholy Hunger

Weight of the Underworld

Roxton

Origins Gideon only has five spell slots. New Gideon has eight. Couple that with his reinforceable 8/8 ability, and you get a stompy control deck from hell.

• Gideon's Phalanx
• Foundry of the Councils
• Smite the Monstrous
• Roil Spout
• Encircling Fissure
• Quarantine Field
• Auramancer
• Enshrouding Mist
• Alchemist's Vial
• Sheer Drop

The smites, spouts, and vial|fissure&drop pairs come fast enough that the enemy rarely swings, while you build up your cheaply reinforced 8/8. Unlike Jace control, the matches are quite fast. The first ability gets used rarely, and only as an HP conservation measure against small critters.

Quarantine is optional, but it's a no-brainer include in this deck if you have it. Plays the same, except your hand fills with charged control faster, and you can prioritize ability matches.

Awakening is insult to injury. Foundry is tech against disable. Auramancer is probably unnecessary, but this deck necessitates regular discards, so it's a small loss. I draw every turn, barring the perfect hand. Phalanx will be discarded over cheaper control, so it gets little play anyways, even if it is a nice, stompy wall. Mists also get discarded generally, but they're worth it, as they reverse tempo loss from berserker, first-strike, and deathtouch. Unlike Origins Gideon, neo-Gideon can get the five mana cost in three colors, so you don't have to waste mana precharging something situational.

Ap00calypse

I don't even bother with defensive spells or offensive supports for Gideon II. Neither the Vet Warleader is really needed. With 3 creatures in the deck (out of which the only gold one is the Scout) and his 1st/2nd, you're always guaranteed to have a meatshield. I dwindled the supports to Suppression Bonds alone, since it gets blown away immediately 9 out of 10 games and is there as a last resort (I keep it full and dark til I desperately need it). The spells, however, are 75% offensive with Alchemist's, Retribution, Reckoning and Smite. The other two are Mist (which is 50/50 offense-defense) and Ondu for an ungodly health/damage boost. Out of ~200+ QBs I've played with this deck so far, I lost maybe 3 matches, out of which only 1 was a real loss to a mythic-heavy Kiora. This is also the deck I waltzed through the entire BfZ storyline with (and, so far, the best nearly-guaranteed counter to the Chandra menace ).

Ap00calypse

As far as advantages go:

https://youtu.be/ApYBaMTrvrk?list=PLEvN ... naFCPdpaZW