PvP reward changes are much worse for everyone except 0.3%

loroku

Here are the new ranks / rewards based on the new 3000-slot PvP:

Rank - Reward
1 - mythic, 250 , Big Box
2 to 10 - rare, 80 , Fat Pack
11 to 50 - rare, 30 , 5-card Booster
51 to 150 - rare, 20 , 3-card booster
151 to 250 - uncommon, 10 , 3-card booster
251 to 500 - uncommon, 500 , 3-card booster
501 to 1000 - uncommon, 250
1001 to 3000 - 100

Here is an image of some of the previous rewards:
https://d3go.com/wp-content/uploads/201 ... -Quest.jpg

I think the remaining rewards were:
52 - 101 - uncommon, 10 , 3-card booster
102-151 - uncommon, 250?
152-300 - uncommon, 100?

These new rewards are MUCH WORSE for EVERYONE except the top ~0.3% of players.

First place: was 0.3%, now WAY DOWN to 0.03% of the population - HUGE boost in reward (BB instead of FP, lots of instead of )

Second place: was 1.7%, now WAY DOWN to 0.3% - minor boost ( instead of )
Total population 2nd place or above: was 2%, now 0.3%

Third place: was 3.3%, now down to 1.3% - minor boost ( instead of )
Total population 3rd place or above: was 5.3%, now 1.7% (if you were in the top 1.7% before, you got a FP - now you get a booster unless you're in the top 0.3%)

Fourth place: was 3.3%, now the same at 3.3% - minor NERF (fewer )
Total population 4th place or above: was 8.7%, now 5%

Fifth place: was 8.3%, now down to 3.3% - minor NERF (fewer )
Total population 5th place or above: was 17%, now 8.3%

Sixth place: was 16.7%, now down to 8.3% - NERF ( instead of )
Total population 6th place or above: was 33.7%, now 16.7%

Seventh place: was 16.7%, now the same at 16.7% - I think it was the same
Total population 7th place or above: was 50.3%, now 33.3% (the bar is higher to get the same reward)

Eighth place: was 49.7%, now way up to 66.7% - major NERF (no uncommon card)


In summary:

If you regularly placed rank 1 in the previous PvP ranks, you will receive a much bigger reward now.

If you regularly place rank 2 or lower, you will receive a worse or much worse reward now.


This ignores another consequence which is that there are more "try hard" people grouped together now. Before, you might only have 2-3 "super" PvP players who would get 100s of points, but other people who weren't trying as hard might still get rank 6+ without that much effort. Now, with 5x the players, you might have 10-15 "super" people per shard, ensuring that the same amount of effort now nets a 3rd place reward instead of 2nd place - thus making the top 0.3% even harder to obtain for anyone who can't put in a massive effort. (Not judging this as good or bad - simply observing.)


Overall this is a major, major shift downward in rewards, especially since PvP is the only source of rewards in the game right now. There are more crystals available in the story mode - MANY more - but those are a 1-time get, and all the ones from the "Origins" story mode are more or less a replacement for the crystal rewards that were removed before. I don't know how many more crystals are available - but I'm sure it's at least a Big Box or maybe two. This still doesn't cover the long-term change to the PvP rewards. It also heavily shifts the focus of acquisition in this game to pay-to-win (as any major downward shift in rewards would do).

Given this plus the removal of the runes -> 3 pack change before, I have to think the devs are worried about the rate of advancement in the game. (This also seems to be reflected in that Fat Packs still have no guaranteed rarity and Big Boxes only have a rare guaranteed.) It may also signal they are worried that when (if) they introduce Events, the total reward rate would be too high. In the short term, it definitely signals that whatever reward rate they had going was a mistake in their eyes. (I suspect they underestimated how much the top 1-5% of players would engage with their game - similar to MPQ.)


On a personal note, I find this a shame because the worst thing about MPQ was the glacial reward rate and the constant moving of the goalposts - and I worry this game is going to continue to follow in its step-sister's footsteps. I also think the devs are not aligned with the goals of most players who post on this forum, and possibly most other players: they want all the cards. I suspect the devs are scared of allowing the players to get all the cards too quickly because they fear these players will then become bored without anything else to collect or other goals and churn (and "leveling your PWs" having become trivial doesn't help). I personally suspect this is wrong: I think players will continue to play even when they have all the cards, because that's when the "real" end-game starts to them. I suggest to the devs to come up with more of a reason to have the cards than simply "to get more of the cards," which is their primary purpose at the moment, and which is an unsustainable goal (unless they plan to release new cards so often that additional play modes will become necessary very quickly, just like paper MtG).

Flaricus

Agreed, I noticed this as well, have not played quickbattles yet. Been doing the Story mode, actually was turned off by the reward tier. Was hoping that it was setup in larger groups that it would be more generous at the bottom.

EDUSAN

ill wait to see how it goes.

If i can get into the 2-11 from time to time (what used to be 2-7) or if i can get into the 11-51 fairly easy ill be happy since those were the ranks i always ended up in (when i could play)

getting crystals instead of runes is NO minor upgrade in my books. Its a PRETTY BIG ONE.

but yeah, ill see how it goes but all in all im kinda dissapointed in the direction they are taking for everything. I guess people is not spending as much money as they would like to in the game

Frustrating pack openings
Not good solution to dupes
No good use for runes besides forced ways of making us spending it
No crafting card solution
And crystals are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive.

they are trying really hard to make me leave

loroku

EDUSAN wrote:

If i can get into the 2-11 from time to time (what used to be 2-7) or if i can get into the 11-51 fairly easy ill be happy since those were the ranks i always ended up in (when i could play)

You won't, though. What used to be rank 1 is now ranks 1-10. 11-51 is still obtainable, though, but it will be much harder - it's like getting 2-7 was before.


Another thing about this change is that it effectively makes it MUCH harder for casuals to get rewards. Whether or not you like that probably depends on how casual you are.

I guess my personal note above just comes from my experience with MPQ: a wonderful core gameplay with a terrible meta where the reward structure inherently gets worse over time. I was really looking forward to MtG:PQ because I knew they would have a wonderful core mechanic again, but they unfortunately also ended up with a poor meta, and they're making it worse - just like MPQ. Ah well.

Keegan

EDUSAN wrote:

getting crystals instead of runes is NO minor upgrade in my books. Its a PRETTY BIG ONE.

For sure. Bracket snipe, join an event with a few hours remaining and grind into the top ten for crystals+fat pack is fantastic. I think they nerfed the lower tier rewards because you could do the same sniping, only play a couple of battles, and get a ton of PW runes relative to how much you worked.

Frustrating pack openings

Sure, no one can rebutt the fickleness of the RNG.

Not good solution to dupes

We have a solution now, which is a start. The game is only four months into release, I anticipate plenty of feature enhancement for dupes

No good use for runes besides forced ways of making us spending it

Same as the previous answer, in that the game is not feature complete. For those of us - and we're in the very tiny minority of the playerbase - who grinded through countless hours of QB we're swimming in runes since the 300 reward upgrade. However, most players are very casual and runes are not easy to come by as QB wins are not as easy to come by with PW at lower levels and smaller decks...

In other words, most of us here are in a relatively privilidged position in respect to in-game resources. Just sit on the runes, the time will come.

No crafting card solution

I've seen this mentioned several times, apparently there is another game with card crafting. I always wonder, why would MtGPQ have such a system as well?

1. It's not a feature of paper MtG and the developers are trying to stick to paper the best they can relative to software limitations (like having to nerf Mizzium because the AI just can't make it work). I'm not a paper MTG player, so someone do correct me if I'm wrong here.
2. If it's not a feature of MTG and another game has it, that seems like an unoriginal knock-off which isn't inspiring
3. I imagine the development for such a feature would take a lot of work and a lot of time. Remember, this is a three-person development team here, it's not a big studio production.

And crystals are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive.

Yeah, but now with the QB changes to put crystals in the top awards makes them much more available. I mean, they do have to make some money and crystals are the clear way to go.

they are trying really hard to make me leave

I'm just playing with little goal in mind other than to collect cards as they come and stockpile runes and crystals for future feature developments. There's still a ton of possibilities to be built, notwithstanding 20+ years of MTG decks to inspire the game.

Meto5000

Keegan wrote:

And crystals are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too expensive.

Yeah, but now with the QB changes to put crystals in the top awards makes them much more available. I mean, they do have to make some money and crystals are the clear way to go.

Most players should want crystals to be somewhat expensive, if they were less expensive there would be even more incentive to buy crystals than earn them and the development would have to skew that way.

I think the developers are moving in the right direction with making more crystals available through playing and once events are introduce, people will have even more ways (hypothetically). The game only feels super cash hungry when there's only a few ways to earn crystals AND they're really expensive in the store.

loroku

Keegan wrote:

No crafting card solution

I've seen this mentioned several times, apparently there is another game with card crafting. I always wonder, why would MtGPQ have such a system as well?

1. It's not a feature of paper MtG and the developers are trying to stick to paper the best they can relative to software limitations (like having to nerf Mizzium because the AI just can't make it work). I'm not a paper MTG player, so someone do correct me if I'm wrong here.
2. If it's not a feature of MTG and another game has it, that seems like an unoriginal knock-off which isn't inspiring
3. I imagine the development for such a feature would take a lot of work and a lot of time. Remember, this is a three-person development team here, it's not a big studio production.

Because in paper MtG you can trade.

You've skipped part of the reasoning logic: because this game is a closed system, there's no other way to get cards; in the paper game you can trade or buy from 3rd parties; trading in-game is universally acknowledged as a terrible idea in digital games due to account theft; therefore if we want another way to get cards a crafting solution is best. More than one other, similar game does this. But yes, also the #1 digital card game in existence (by orders of magnitude) also does this, and they are probably on to something. It's not so much of a knock-off as it is an expected feature. It's like going to a house with no windows: you wouldn't think adding windows was a knock-off of other houses, but more like a baseline expectation of what makes something a "house."

BassMuffinFIve

I fear that this game is turning into Marvel Puzzle Quest as well. I originally came over and saw the Magic title and was excited, then saw D3 and I guess I knew what I was in for... grindy game with a stingy reward system. This game was cute for a while, but the honeymoon period may be over.

You have a great game, just like MPQ was, Mr. devs. Don't ruin it with infinite grinding that no one loves and and a card collection system filled with randomness that makes you feel helpless, lack of ways to craft cards you are missing, and insulting duplicate sell prices. This is 2016 fellas. No one likes the random cover acquisition method in MPQ, time to wake up and get with the times. Hell, even the pretty bad Magic game right now has ways for you to get all the cards. Hearthstone you can craft them...

Model your system after a functional game please, not a dysfunctional one.

Keegan

loroku wrote:

Keegan wrote:

No crafting card solution

I've seen this mentioned several times, apparently there is another game with card crafting. I always wonder, why would MtGPQ have such a system as well?

1. It's not a feature of paper MtG and the developers are trying to stick to paper the best they can relative to software limitations (like having to nerf Mizzium because the AI just can't make it work). I'm not a paper MTG player, so someone do correct me if I'm wrong here.
2. If it's not a feature of MTG and another game has it, that seems like an unoriginal knock-off which isn't inspiring
3. I imagine the development for such a feature would take a lot of work and a lot of time. Remember, this is a three-person development team here, it's not a big studio production.

Because in paper MtG you can trade.

You've skipped part of the reasoning logic: because this game is a closed system, there's no other way to get cards; in the paper game you can trade or buy from 3rd parties; trading in-game is universally acknowledged as a terrible idea in digital games due to account theft; therefore if we want another way to get cards a crafting solution is best. More than one other, similar game does this. But yes, also the #1 digital card game in existence (by orders of magnitude) also does this, and they are probably on to something. It's not so much of a knock-off as it is an expected feature. It's like going to a house with no windows: you wouldn't think adding windows was a knock-off of other houses, but more like a baseline expectation of what makes something a "house."

That's a sensible explanation that I haven't read yet, only "you should have crafting", thank you.

ChrisTot

Even the new Crossy Road has a way to "craft" up to a GUARANTEED character you don't have yet.
Digital mediums should kind of have this figured out by now. I think the house / window analogy is fine.

Crossy Road's conversion is roughly 10x, Hearthstone's is 8x.
As in, if I have 8 extra rare cards, i should be able to cash them in for whatever rare card i would like to have.

If you had 8 extra of anything in the world, would you trade it for 1 of something of the same quality?
They have consignment stores IRL that do an 8x conversion for clothing. Trade in 8 polos, get 1 new one, haha.

And it doesn't feel like a "horrible deal" or a "steal". It's just fair. Doesn't seem outrageous for their to be a fair system in this game too. It's all digital. MtG online has bots you can sell your cards to, as well as buy from. What you get is never as good as what you give up, but that's to be expected. You take a loss because you don't need what you're getting rid of and you do need what you're asking for. 8x feels like a pretty magical ratio, not just in card games, but in real life too. Any worse, and consignment stores wouldn't be in business. Any less, and they'd have TOO much business.

/rant

Flaricus

Was hoping they would set up a milestone tier of some type, so after you lets say hit 20 badges, or whatever they are called you could receive 300 hundred runes or something. Then another milestone at 50 and on up.
It would make people not only push towards the top for the big box, but also for the smaller milestone like rewards.

Keegan

Flaricus wrote:

Was hoping they would set up a milestone tier of some type, so after you lets say hit 20 badges, or whatever they are called you could receive 300 hundred runes or something. Then another milestone at 50 and on up.
It would make people not only push towards the top for the big box, but also for the smaller milestone like rewards.

I anticipate such a feature in the future, it's another draw into the game. They just need the development time.

EDHdad

If your goal is to get some gems and a rare, you can now do this by ranking in the top 150. This is very doable. Previously, you would have had to rank between #17 and #26, which was just weird.

It's also not as difficult to compete when you start immediately after the game begins. Yes, the try-hards will be beating each other up to be #1, but it's not difficult at all to be one of the top 150 try-hards.

I play on two different devices and I've noticed that there isn't a really big advantage anymore to waiting until the contest is nearly over before entering. Whether you're in the first bracket or the last, there are still going to be some try-hards grinding for the top spot. So, I actually like the fact that I no longer feel that I have to wait until the last few hours before playing PvP mode.

Your larger point is valid, but I think it goes deeper than that. The top x% of players really should get a random card WHICH THEY DON'T ALREADY OWN, not some duplicate rare / Mythic that they trade in for a handful of runes.

I'd love to see them introduce a new product - a pack with one card in it, but that card is a card that you do not own. Could be common, uncommon, rare or Mythic, but you do not own that card (unless you own all the cards).

loroku

EDHdad wrote:

If your goal is to get some gems and a rare, you can now do this by ranking in the top 150. This is very doable. Previously, you would have had to rank between #17 and #26, which was just weird.

So the top 5% is easier to you than the top 8.7%?

Sorry, but the rare cards are now harder to get. Everything is harder to get. And unless you score in the top 0.3%, your rewards are worse, period.

Unknown

Yeah, it was difficult before for the casual player to rank; I used the snipe method, ending up in a bracket with other snipers. Now, there really is no point. This was the only continue draw for me. I may be out now, I'll see if there are any new, redeeming qualities to the game.

EDHdad

Yes, top 5% is easier to obtain than top 8.7%. Don't look at percentages. Look at the actual number of wins you need to get into a given bracket. On my phone right now, I'm ranked #61 in a bracket that I started yesterday for a PvP which ends tonight. I have 96 points, which is 16 wins at 6 points per win. Even stopping right now, it's a cinch that I'll place in the top 150. Under the old system, there's absolutely no way that 16 wins in a bracket started 36 hours before the end of an event would have gotten crystals plus a rare.

I think it's important to remember that most of the people on this board are probably already in the top 1% to 5% of players in terms of the number of planeswalkers leveled to maximum level, the number of cards in their pool, the strategy and deckbuilding skill. Even things like card sequencing and matching gems.

A bigger bracket smooths out the variance. It's harder to get into the top 10, because there's likely to be 10 people who are playing hour after hour after hour. It's easier to get into the top 150 because there aren't that many people trying to knock you out.

As someone else suggested, just try it. Set a goal to be in the top 150, just the top 150, and see how easy or difficult it actually is. See how many wins you would actually need. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

ChrisTot

EDHdad wrote:

Yes, top 5% is easier to obtain than top 8.7%. Don't look at percentages. Look at the actual number of wins you need to get into a given bracket. On my phone right now, I'm ranked #61 in a bracket that I started yesterday for a PvP which ends tonight. I have 96 points, which is 16 wins at 6 points per win. Even stopping right now, it's a cinch that I'll place in the top 150. Under the old system, there's absolutely no way that 16 wins in a bracket started 36 hours before the end of an event would have gotten crystals plus a rare.

I think it's important to remember that most of the people on this board are probably already in the top 1% to 5% of players in terms of the number of planeswalkers leveled to maximum level, the number of cards in their pool, the strategy and deckbuilding skill. Even things like card sequencing and matching gems.

A bigger bracket smooths out the variance. It's harder to get into the top 10, because there's likely to be 10 people who are playing hour after hour after hour. It's easier to get into the top 150 because there aren't that many people trying to knock you out.

As someone else suggested, just try it. Set a goal to be in the top 150, just the top 150, and see how easy or difficult it actually is. See how many wins you would actually need. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I think this is an excellent point. Before these new rankings came out, there was an incentive to wait until the last hour before a quick battle was over to play at all. The reason why is because like you said, without playing a lot, you'd end up below 50 receiving almost nothing. Under this new system you're encouraged to actually play the game. Do 11 players per pod (and thus about 110+ people) get even better rewards?..yes. But that was happening anyway with people aiming to get 17th-25th. For the first time in a long time I actually tried to do well this weekend because there was no reason not to. I was probably averaging 4 games played per quick battle under the old system. I would actually spend more time not getting higher than 17th than I would playing.

I'm thinking for the long term health of the game, this new bracket system is probably way better. Don't compare the new system to what you could snipe before. Compare the new one to accidentally joining 6 hours into a new quick battle by accident..and that's a problem all by itself, before..if you played the game too early, it was a mistake.