3-Star Spider-Man Moves and Colors

Unknown

Does anyone else think 3* Spider-Man's moves and move colors are off? I feel like it should be more like:
Head-on attack (like 1* Spider-Man's Web Swing)
All Tied Up - that moves's good
Spider-Sense - change the color from purple to black

Maybe it's just a matter of opinion, but I think the color combinations obviously work for him and he needs a straightforward attack. The Web Bandages don't make much sense to me. Am I the only one who feels this way?

Dragon_Nexus

Should be purple more than black. Purple is defensive or it's energy. Black is mostly villainous. Not a lot of heroes use black.

Luke Cage's colours are off, when you think about it.

Skygazing

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Should be purple more than black. Purple is defensive or it's energy. Black is mostly villainous. Not a lot of heroes use black.

Luke Cage's colours are off, when you think about it.

I've been trying to figure out MPQ's "color wheel" for a bit, but the color identity isn't as well defined as it is in MtG and seems more steeped in mechanical identity vs character identity. Earlier characters tend to be more erratic than later ones, to be fair. The most common traits though seem to be as follows:

Mostly concerned with "teamwork" and "protection". Common powers include healing, generating protect tiles, and other forms of team support and damage mitigation. Nukes are rare but do exists, and are based on "teamwork", like Cage's and Venom's (albeit twisted).

Mostly concerned with "power" and "ferocity". Powers are almost always about damage, including direct high damage, amplified/conditional damage, and to a lesser extent tile destruction.

Mostly concerned with "tactics" and "intelligence". Common powers include stunning and special tile generation/interaction, and to a lesser extent healing. Blue has a lot to do with mental ability, though there are some very weird powers like Surfer's that don't fit terribly well.

Mostly concerned with "stealth" and "cunning". Common powers include AP/tile theft and gameboard interaction (conversion/generation of certain colors/tiles, scrambling, etc.), and to a lesser extent special tile generation and stunning. Purple powers tend to be "tricky", and often involve altering a situation to the team's benefit. Elektra steals and improves strike tiles, XFDP creates CD tiles you want to match away and the enemy doesn't, SG punishes the enemy for having too many special tiles, etc.

Mostly concerned with "strength" and "natural skill". Common powers include tile destruction, team damage, and large damage in general. It's very tricky to determine whether a power should be red or green, and most of the differences seem to be more "meta" (mechanics-based) then inborn (character/comic-based). The most common difference is that green has more interaction with the gameboard, while red focuses even more on damage. Green powers also seem to have something to do with a character's natural talents vs their power.

Mostly concerned with "recklessness" and "selfishness". Black is a bit harder to express in one word, but can most often mechanically be described as "high risk, high reward". Black powers either involve some big payoff with a drawback, and/or are thematically "dark". In the former category you have things like GG's which is big damage but can be disabled, Cyke's which does big damage but stuns him, and HB's which does self-damage but generates AP and strike tiles. In the latter category you have things like Blade's which is him consuming blood, Doom's which summons "demons", and Psylocke's which leaves the enemy with a crippling wound.

If I had to put MPQ's colors in line with MtG's:

=
=
=
=
=
=


Cage is a weird character in that his powers kind of push the boundaries of their normal color identities. His yellow is still about teamwork, but is very high damage. His red is about power, but his power is his skin. His black fits best, as it has to be fired multiple times in a short period to be effective.

Mawtful

Cage could probably be re-coloured to Yellow-Green-Red (or Red-Yellow-Green).

Uppercut relies on keeping teammates alive (Yellow), but it's written as dealing conditional bonus damage (Red).
Unbreakable creates a regenerating/renewing (Green) tile, but it's a Protect tile which actually helps the whole team (Yellow).
JJC deals conditional bonus damage (Red), but is a cheap/rapid fire combo ability (Green).

Anyway, what's really important to remember is that powers aren't based off costume colours; that's like saying tier stars should be based off in-comic power level. That said, Black powers are often very strong but carry a drawback and that's pretty much perfect for a "2-way swap" ability called "Great Power" and "Great Responsibility".

ClydeFrog76

Oh cool, another 3* Spidey thread to remind me how much I wish they'd buff him but never will.

*walks slowly into lake with rocks in pockets*

Pylgrim

Jusssst leaving this here https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41426&p=500898

JJC deals conditional bonus damage (Red), but is a cheap/rapid fire combo ability (Green).

Have to disagree here. There's very little evidence for something such as "cheap/rapid fire" category and less about it being green. On the other hand, black has several examples of abilities that become better after a condition is met, including a second cast of the ability. I agree that LC red and yellow could perfectly be switched, but that would be giving up one of the few (and perhaps the best both in flavour and execution) yellow high-damage abilities in the game. I'd rather make Indestructible blue, the second more likely colour to place down friendly tiles.

20three

Skygazing wrote:

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

Should be purple more than black. Purple is defensive or it's energy. Black is mostly villainous. Not a lot of heroes use black.

Luke Cage's colours are off, when you think about it.

I've been trying to figure out MPQ's "color wheel" for a bit, but the color identity isn't as well defined as it is in MtG and seems more steeped in mechanical identity vs character identity. Earlier characters tend to be more erratic than later ones, to be fair. The most common traits though seem to be as follows:

Mostly concerned with "teamwork" and "protection". Common powers include healing, generating protect tiles, and other forms of team support and damage mitigation. Nukes are rare but do exists, and are based on "teamwork", like Cage's and Venom's (albeit twisted).

Mostly concerned with "power" and "ferocity". Powers are almost always about damage, including direct high damage, amplified/conditional damage, and to a lesser extent tile destruction.

Mostly concerned with "tactics" and "intelligence". Common powers include stunning and special tile generation/interaction, and to a lesser extent healing. Blue has a lot to do with mental ability, though there are some very weird powers like Surfer's that don't fit terribly well.

Mostly concerned with "stealth" and "cunning". Common powers include AP/tile theft and gameboard interaction (conversion/generation of certain colors/tiles, scrambling, etc.), and to a lesser extent special tile generation and stunning. Purple powers tend to be "tricky", and often involve altering a situation to the team's benefit. Elektra steals and improves strike tiles, XFDP creates CD tiles you want to match away and the enemy doesn't, SG punishes the enemy for having too many special tiles, etc.

Mostly concerned with "strength" and "natural skill". Common powers include tile destruction, team damage, and large damage in general. It's very tricky to determine whether a power should be red or green, and most of the differences seem to be more "meta" (mechanics-based) then inborn (character/comic-based). The most common difference is that green has more interaction with the gameboard, while red focuses even more on damage. Green powers also seem to have something to do with a character's natural talents vs their power.

Mostly concerned with "recklessness" and "selfishness". Black is a bit harder to express in one word, but can most often mechanically be described as "high risk, high reward". Black powers either involve some big payoff with a drawback, and/or are thematically "dark". In the former category you have things like GG's which is big damage but can be disabled, Cyke's which does big damage but stuns him, and HB's which does self-damage but generates AP and strike tiles. In the latter category you have things like Blade's which is him consuming blood, Doom's which summons "demons", and Psylocke's which leaves the enemy with a crippling wound.

If I had to put MPQ's colors in line with MtG's:

=
=
=
=
=
=


Cage is a weird character in that his powers kind of push the boundaries of their normal color identities. His yellow is still about teamwork, but is very high damage. His red is about power, but his power is his skin. His black fits best, as it has to be fired multiple times in a short period to be effective.

This is a well done explanation, bravo

But let's be honest, Luke Cage has a yellow cause he has a yellow shirt, nuff said

SpecSpecter

20three wrote:

But let's be honest, Luke Cage has a yellow cause he has a yellow shirt, nuff said

To be fair, most people probably expect characters to have colors that are associated with them rather then if that color really represents their abilities any. I mean, people hardly were clamoring for Green Goblin to have a green ability because they thought what he needed was some more board shake.

kirk justice

I actually just made a post in Suggestions the other day about Spider-Man needing a change.

alphabeta

Mawtful wrote:

Cage could probably be re-coloured to Yellow-Green-Red (or Red-Yellow-Green).

Uppercut relies on keeping teammates alive (Yellow), but it's written as dealing conditional bonus damage (Red).
Unbreakable creates a regenerating/renewing (Green) tile, but it's a Protect tile which actually helps the whole team (Yellow).
JJC deals conditional bonus damage (Red), but is a cheap/rapid fire combo ability (Green).

Anyway, what's really important to remember is that powers aren't based off costume colours; that's like saying tier stars should be based off in-comic power level. That said, Black powers are often very strong but carry a drawback and that's pretty much perfect for a "2-way swap" ability called "Great Power" and "Great Responsibility".

If cage where to be reworked on colours then Iron Fist would have to be as well - the synergy there is in game reflecting canon

Mawtful

alphabeta wrote:

Mawtful wrote:

Cage could probably be re-coloured to Yellow-Green-Red (or Red-Yellow-Green).

Uppercut relies on keeping teammates alive (Yellow), but it's written as dealing conditional bonus damage (Red).
Unbreakable creates a regenerating/renewing (Green) tile, but it's a Protect tile which actually helps the whole team (Yellow).
JJC deals conditional bonus damage (Red), but is a cheap/rapid fire combo ability (Green).

Anyway, what's really important to remember is that powers aren't based off costume colours; that's like saying tier stars should be based off in-comic power level. That said, Black powers are often very strong but carry a drawback and that's pretty much perfect for a "2-way swap" ability called "Great Power" and "Great Responsibility".

If cage where to be reworked on colours then Iron Fist would have to be as well - the synergy there is in game reflecting canon

Funny you should mention that; I generally think most characters in MPQ should be reworked. My take on Iron Fist would be either Green/Yellow/Black or Black/Yellow/Green, accompanied by a few additional mechanical changes to his powers (these changes will affect how the powers are coloured).

Let's talk about Iron Fist of K'un-Lun first, since it's Yellow in both of my options. In my colour chart, Yellow is not just about Teamwork, it's about Strategy as well. There's not very much puzzle in Marvel Puzzle Quest, but I do actually think that abilities which end the turn do present an option for just a little bit of strategy and 2/3 of those are yellow. Anyway, IFoKL converts basic tiles or deals damage based on a conditional statement - if the team's <black> AP is 12 or more. The current Iron Fist set doesn't use Black AP, so this ability really is designed around teamwork. It's one of the most Yellow abilities in the game. I think it should keep the 12 AP threshold for its conversion between colour change and damage, however there's a chance it may need to generate AP of a different colour.

Exquisite Technique is currently Black, but it's really got no drawback; it won't generate an attack tile if one's already in play, so don't team up with Storm or Psylocke. Firstly, I'm going to give this ability a mechanical change - in addition to the "no other attack tiles" rule, it should also only create an attack tile if the team has 12 or more <black> AP. This is the same threshold for IFoKL (and Shou-Lao Fang Strike), and maybe you're already starting to see how these abilities should be working together. So now if you want that attack tile to be created at the start of turn, you need to make sure you keep your AP stockpiled. This certainly adds enough of a drawback to paint this ability Black, although I've already set precedent for regenerating special tiles to be Green in my Cage recolour.

Lastly, we look at Shou-Lao Fang Strike. This deals damage and creates Strike tiles, or creates even more Strike tiles if the team has more than 12 <black> AP. It's a bit of a generic ability - nothing too much about it that really marks it as being a specific colour. The exception, of course, is the AP threshold for extra Strike tiles.

So here's the point where we decide how best to colour these abilities.
If SLFS is Green, it should continue to create Strikes on Red; IFoKL should be Yellow and change tiles to Green; ET should be Black. All abilities should use the threshold of 12 Green AP.
If SLFS is Black, it should create Strikes on Yellow; IFoKL should be Yellow and continue to change tiles to Black; ET should be Green. All abilities should use the threshold of 12 Black AP.

Given these two options, a Green/Yellow/Black IF would retain the same synergy as a RYG Cage as the current IF/Cage combo.
Notes:
Either colour change would give Iron Fist abilities which match the colours of his costume, which is a happy accident.
In both options presented, I made sure that IF has an active ability which uses the colour he generates. This was a conscious decision; It's his chi, he really should be able to use it himself. However, if the second option was changed to generate Green (and use a 12 Green AP threshold) then it would be functionally similar to the current set.

20three

alphabeta wrote:

Mawtful wrote:

Cage could probably be re-coloured to Yellow-Green-Red (or Red-Yellow-Green).

Uppercut relies on keeping teammates alive (Yellow), but it's written as dealing conditional bonus damage (Red).
Unbreakable creates a regenerating/renewing (Green) tile, but it's a Protect tile which actually helps the whole team (Yellow).
JJC deals conditional bonus damage (Red), but is a cheap/rapid fire combo ability (Green).

Anyway, what's really important to remember is that powers aren't based off costume colours; that's like saying tier stars should be based off in-comic power level. That said, Black powers are often very strong but carry a drawback and that's pretty much perfect for a "2-way swap" ability called "Great Power" and "Great Responsibility".

If cage where to be reworked on colours then Iron Fist would have to be as well - the synergy there is in game reflecting canon

Not really, if Jab Jab was blue then I'd agree, but it's a huge flaw in synergy when one character needs a color to unleash a devastating attack and the other character is wasting it firing off an attack that does about a thousand. I get that you want to feed cage's black for power, but it's counterproductive that one character needs to hoard that color for even stronger potential. Now on offense, it's another story, cause you can wait, unleash a couple purples, gather your black, then hope for more purples and greens, obliterate the heck out of your opponent, and then finish him off with 3 or 4 jabs. But on defense, you've got iron fist's randomly firing off purples, getting maybe a match or 2 then cage will fire off a black and most times will not gather enough before the countdown runs out.

Pylgrim

What I really want to see, taking in account that both LC and IF are characters with 2 complementary actives each and a passive each that always produces an attack or a protect tile, is a Jessica Jones with two actives in the missing colours (blue and red) and a green passive that always produces a strike tile.

Edit: Ah, thread was euthanasied and its corpse was thrown to the dumpster. It had a good run!