What does "grinding" actually mean?

abmoraz

Watching the mostly negative threads about the new PvE testing (and reacting poorly to them myself) has led me to a conclusion:

There is a fundamental difference between the Devs and the Players as to what the term "grinding" means

From what I see, the Devs seem to define it as "repetition of nodes that pose little or no challenge". The players seem to define it as "time sunk playing for points/rewards". This variance in the term seems to be a major factor in the disconnect between the 2 parties.

The Devs have made changes that they are asking us, the player base, to test for them. These changes seem, for the most part, to address the perceived issue from the Dev's point of view. It involves much less grinding of nodes that pose little-to-no challenge to the player. Instead, it replaces them with more difficult stages that take more time to receive the same reward.

From the players point of view, this is not the case. Previously, clearing all 9 or 10 nodes in a Sub Event took 30-45 minutes (in some cases less). Now, because of the increased difficulty, it can take 60-90 minutes. Nearly double the time commitment for the same payout. In order to get the same rewards (victory rewards, progression rewards, and placement rewards), the players have to spend twice as much time.

To the player base, this has the perception of having to grind more, not less. Previously, to clear 3 full runs took roughly 2 hours of a players' day (split up over the day). Now it takes 3-4 hours. The final push at the end of an event meant one could spend 30 minutes doing the final 4 runs on the easy/trivial nodes and wipe them out, then 30 minutes on other nodes that provided the best rewards or points. Now it means a player can do 4, maybe 6 battles in total because the difference in time spent between the lowest level node and the highest level node is usually negligible. Whether it is a 'Trivial' node or an 'Impossible' node, it is going to take 10-15 minutes of careful planning and game play. One bad board or an unfortunate cascade means failure, health pack usage, and restarting all over again losing precious time.

The variance between the highest level node and lowest level node under the old system was vast. Often my lowest level node was about level 40, where as my highest level node was ~240s (a 6x difference or a 200 level range). Now my lowest level node is ~200 and my highest level node is ~250. (and 1.25x difference or a 50 level range). Quite frankly, the challenge between a level 200 mob and a level 250 is negligible when it comes to game play and time spent. Once enemies get over 200 levels, they are pretty much the same. It takes a nuke attack, stun lock, or specific combo attacks from the players' top few characters to do any significant damage or to kill the enemy. Match damage becomes pointless. Trying other strategies becomes impractical and is not cost-effect (in neither time, effort, nor health packs).

The "grind" has now become "whittling away at massive amounts of hit points" rather than "replaying the same node over and over" and, because it takes much longer to eventually get the same rewards, seems more like punishment rather than improvement.

Thank you,
~abmoraz

**Edited to fix a typo and make a more appropriate title

adamdivine

Very well said

JVReal

I'd change the title, I ignored it at first as just another rant against devs, but this is a good observation that deserves not to be overlooked.

abmoraz

JVReal wrote:

I'd change the title, I ignored it at first as just another rant against devs, but this is a good observation that deserves not to be overlooked.

What do you suggest? I'm pretty poor at naming things... (seriously asking)

firethorne

Yep, they basically changed "repetition of nodes that pose little or no challenge" to "repetition of nodes that pose a significant challenge."

Calnexin

I have a fundamental disagreement re: placement rewards.

The nodes are tougher. As such, it's harder to get progression. Victory rewards are similarly difficult.

Placement is relative, because everyone experiences the same thing. With the scaling, it sounds like it's actually worse for more advanced rosters to clear nodes - greater sacrifice for the same reward. This may be the design concept - flip placement on its head so that the less developed rosters have a shot at placement.

With both the previous and this attempt at PvE change, I'm convinced that's what they're going for. Make it so unappealing for the people who already dominate PvP and glean the 4* rewards that they won't bother. Let them compete, but give an advantage (or at least level the field) for developing players.

TxMoose

Calnexin wrote:

This may be the design concept - flip placement on its head so that the less developed rosters have a shot at placement.

if true, it is at exact odds with their stated goals. the reason its worse for guys moving into 4* play is that the scaling takes into account your 3 top characters. for a 3* player, your top 3 are all in the 170s, along with 15-20 other characters. you have lots of options there. scaling for someone with just a few 4*s is based on those and that's all you have at that level. so where a 3* player has 20 characters at their disposal, a 4* with just a few up there, has just a few options. that is why it is so much harder for higher rosters. I don't think its quite as bad for those that have 15+ 4*s maxed. boosted plays into it, but that's my theory.

fmftint

They must use the same dictionary to define "trivial", because now it refers only to reward value

DaveR4470

Interesting post.

One issue: the concept of "grinding" in MPQ is a bit divorced from what grinding REALLY means, or meant, in its original context. "Grinding" as a concept came out of MMOs, specifically (I think) Everquest. And it essentially is "taking repetitive action to incrementally advance towards a specific goal".

In EQ, there were three main forms of grinding:

(1) Grinding for XP; i.e. "I'm going to Crushbone to grind out level 21 once and for all", which involved killing low-level mobs over and over and over again to slooooooooooowly level up. You ground not because it was efficient, or the best way -- but because it was the lowest-risk way to level, given EQ's harsh XP penalty on death.

(2) Grinding for cash, or valuable drops, i.e. "Let's go kill giants in Rathe for a few hours". This involved killing mobs (regardless of XP) over and over again because they dropped a ton of cash, or they randomly dropped valuable craft/quest items. This WAS grinding for efficiency, because it was the most efficient way to make money.

(3) Grinding for quest items, i.e. "I'm going to Crushbone to grind belts and shoulderpads for dwarf XP." This involved killing mobs over and over again because they frequently dropped specific quest items. This was grinding because it was a fetch quest based on numbers, and this is what you had to do to meet the quest requirements.

The difference with MPQ is you have all the repetitiveness, but you lack the known and predictable time spent vs. reward gained calculation that you have in EQ. So "grinding" in MPQ isn't really grinding in the traditional sense; it's gameplay forcing large-scale repetition as part of itself per se. Because in EQ there were always gameplay alternatives to grinding to achieve the same ultimate goals. Instead of going to Crushbone to grind out level 21, just find a friendly druid to take you along to Colbalt Scar and stay way the heck out of the way while he/she solos dragon whelps. You'll get your level.

MPQ doesn't give you a choice, and specifically does not give you different choices as you "level up", which in this game is expanding your roster with more powerful characters.