Not leveling up isn't always soft-capping

mpqr7

Sure, there's a group in mpq who purposely doesn't level up, and those are soft-cappers. They keep their characters at the magic level where scaling isn't out of control, and they can do well in pve. Good for them.

But some of us have highly covered characters at low levels, not because we are soft-capping, but because either:

** We want to champ the characters but don't have the ISO necessary to do it.
or
** The character is either a weak character, so not worth champing. Or we don't have enough covers to matter.

For example, my SS has around 4 covers, but not all colors. Even if I level him up to 300+, that won't stop anyone from crushing me in PVP. And my PH has a whopping 6 covers, but no green. So similarly, no one will be scared of a Phoenix who can't be resurrected.

Yet I believe this new scaling sees me as an ultra-high level player, which is unfair because even with all those covers, my SS and PH haven't become useful yet, so there's no point in leveling them up.

And don't even get me started on my fully covered failcap, prof x, 12-covered mr f etc etc. Those aren't great characters so why should having them fully covered push my scaling higher? There's very little advantage for me to hold onto them, yet it's not right for me to feel compelled to sell them either. I'll champion them eventually for the prizes, but they'll never be competitive in pvp, unless they're the featured character.

tanis3303

I couldn't possibly agree with this more. I have over a dozen champed 4*s, and a ton more of them cover maxed waiting for ISO. I also have a 2/1/3 Surfer (useless except for match damage, even leveled) a 2/2/2 Phoenix (useless except for match damage, even leveled) and a 4/0/1 OML (completely useless without his heal, even leveled) as well as one cover each for 5* Spidey and Goblin...I'm not soft-capping these characters. I'm simply not leveling them because a fully covered lvl 270+ 4* is better than any of them by a large margin. Where does this put me in the new formula? 4* player or "soft-capped" 5* player? Only one of those answers makes me want to continue playing, and it ain't the 5* option...

Dragon_Nexus

My issue is ISO.
I have a few 4*s now with quite a lot of covers. I'm still saving up the ISO to max out my *first* 4*, never mind all of them.

Twysta

TxMoose

yeah, this is what I'm worried about too. 8-cover SS that every time i ask someone "is he ready?" i get..."you could, but i wouldn't - he's just not worth it". and then i have my 7-cover 2/-/5 OML, which is useless without the yellow. if my mmr goes up because of those 2, that's pretty jacked up. not sure if it will or not, but if it does...

BearVenger

Thanks for starting this. My roster has one of each 2*-5* character, but its workhorses are 29 championed 3*s.

When I read this forum, I feel like I should run in the shadows from alley to alley, dodging rotten lettuce and applecores, as my softcapping has ruined gameplay for the masses. I just never wanted to create a roster of three high-levelled characters who set the curve for barebones ISO-orphans. I went from 133 to 140, while keeping a high ISO surplus, as I was trying to catch up to the surplus of 3*/4* characters created in my 6-month hiatus.

When championing was announced, I felt like I stood a chance and spent my bathtub of ISO on the best 3* candidates. But, as d3 realized new and shiny >> old and paid-for and nerfed the 3* champs, that thrill didn't last for a few weeks.

The current leaders in my bracket of EotS have 3*-heavy rosters like mine; 1 guy has the key 4*s champed; none are 2*-only or 2*-primarily. I don't think they are gaming the system at all. Especially at this point, anyone who's in the top 20 of a slice has put a week's worth of stupid grindage in four days of playing.

The focus on placement awards creates this grudging paranoia that someone, somewhere has it unfairly easier than me, didn't have to work as hard, and is stealing my awards.

In a lot of events here, placement awards are fine. I just wish it weren't translated to "You can have your grindage awards, but only after I get mine first, because my roster was better than yours months ago."

There are some 2* starters out there, and I don't begrudge them placing better than me if they work their thumbs down to nubbins to get those last few nodes done.

Warbringa

I agree it isn't softcapping from our view as players. We view softcapping as those players who artificially keep roster levels low to make competition in PvE easier. The issue, as I commented in a response to Moose on the main thread of the PvE change, is that the devs classify softcapping as anyone who simply levels 3-5 characters of a tier and doesn't level up the others of the same tier, aka most of the 4* world and some of the 3* and 2* world as well. We as players know this is a function of not enough iso and poor character balance however the devs look and see that well every 4* roster only basically plays with Iceman, Hulkbuster, Jean, Cyclops, etc., as the data I am sure suggests, so we better encourage them to use more different teams by making the PvE scaling (ie damage characters take) so that you don't have enough healthpacks to lean on just those top characters, you need to invest in the rest of your roster. If a similar system goes into effect into the future (assuming scaling is addressed from this run), you will have a world where PvE rewards diversified rosters even more than it did before and PvP rewards highly leveled rosters with specific characters as it currently does now.

This is one change that would actually benefit me and my roster for once as I haven't entered 4* land and have a usable and diversified 3* roster. The hard nodes have come down in difficulty for me so that I can use different teams on them for the first several clears.

I know there will be many 4* roster players who say they used diversified teams in PvE but in truth I am sure that on the challenging nodes (not trivial or essentials), it was always the power 4* and that is what the devs seem to be addressing with this change. Is it fair to change the rules after the fact? No, but this game has done that many times over. So I understand your pain believe me for those who MAY be impacted by these proposed changes (Ahem - 3* stealth nerf and the removal of buying covers with hp that really hurt me) however at least you are getting a test period and it is unsure what if any changes will happen. Player base wide though, I think the writing is on the wall that in general the average player (who is vastly different than the average forum posting player) probably benefits from this change and whales will still succeed regardless of the change while the average forum going player does not benefit. They will send a poll out to the player base through an in-game link, I think a lot of the changes will stick just a matter of to what degree. All of a sudden when those one or two 5* covers aren't impacting an average players scaling nearly as much as they were in the old system these players will say yeah I like the new version better.

There simply is two different definitions for softcappers out there, the players and the devs are looking at two different groups of people.

SnowcaTT

I've "level capped" thirteen-cover Starlord, Invisible Woman, Elecktra, MrF, FalCap. Because they are garbage and not worth advancing over some of their counterparts.

If sufficient ISO was somehow available, I wouldn't cap these characters. But they are way, WAY down on the list. The 4*'s are so ISO-costly that I've found myself maxing terrible 3*'s I had "capped" earlier simply because it's a cheaper Legendary Token.

TxMoose

the ONLY measure that should go into any soft-capping penalty should be hoarded iso. where could your characters be if you used the iso you have on hand? that is the only thing that should penalize anyone. most of us would love to level everyone, but just a couple iso short....I mean a couple MILLION. and that's just to complete tier 2. not to mention tier 3 of both 3s and 4s. and then all the 'rest' of them. iso crazy!

Warbringa

TxMoose wrote:

the ONLY measure that should go into any soft-capping penalty should be hoarded iso. where could your characters be if you used the iso you have on hand? that is the only thing that should penalize anyone. most of us would love to level everyone, but just a couple iso short....I mean a couple MILLION. and that's just to complete tier 2. not to mention tier 3 of both 3s and 4s. and then all the 'rest' of them. iso crazy!

I agree, that is what we as players view as softcapping and I think those are the people that we all agree should be penalized. The devs though will say that is impossible to accurately include in their scaling model most likely (whether that is truly the case or not ).

PeterGibbons316

TxMoose wrote:

the ONLY measure that should go into any soft-capping penalty should be hoarded iso. where could your characters be if you used the iso you have on hand? that is the only thing that should penalize anyone. most of us would love to level everyone, but just a couple iso short....I mean a couple MILLION. and that's just to complete tier 2. not to mention tier 3 of both 3s and 4s. and then all the 'rest' of them. iso crazy!

I disagree. Evenly leveling ALL of your 3* and then 4* characters even without maintaining a massive ISO cache is still soft capping in my book.

Anyone that has actually played with or against 5*s knows that unlike the other tiers, they benefit MUCH more from leveling than from covers. As such 5* levels should have MUCH greater weight than their "hero power levels."

BearVenger

Warbringa wrote:

TxMoose wrote:

the ONLY measure that should go into any soft-capping penalty should be hoarded iso. where could your characters be if you used the iso you have on hand? that is the only thing that should penalize anyone. most of us would love to level everyone, but just a couple iso short....I mean a couple MILLION. and that's just to complete tier 2. not to mention tier 3 of both 3s and 4s. and then all the 'rest' of them. iso crazy!

I agree, that is what we as players view as softcapping and I think those are the people that we all agree should be penalized. The devs though will say that is impossible to accurately include in their scaling model most likely (whether that is truly the case or not ).

I don't agree with the "we all agree" part, not at all.

I had a group of patchworked 3*s evenly levelled, with 500,000 ISO sitting in the bank, because I didn't want to shoot 2 characters to max and have the game treat me as though those fairly representated my entire roster. I didn't want to have zero ISO in case I caught a lucky draw and got the first covers for a 3* character I didn't have yet (Cage, Cyclops, KK, SWitch).

I was "penalized" enough through being matched against 166-270 teams in PvP, where the consistent prizes were. I find it frustrating that PvP gaming tactics, such as shield-checking, shield-hopping, and alliance truces/dogpiling are considered gamesmanship, but choosing to spend or not spend ISO in a particular fashion is a crime against MPQ community.

Clyve

Presumably (probably wishful thinking), the scaling would be balanced such that it's relative to the usefulness of that under-leveled, high-covered character. What I mean is, it doesn't matter what your reasons are for not maxing a character, be it intentionally "soft-capping", not having the ISO to do it, or just thinking the character isn't ready, enemies should scale only to a point where that character stands a chance if used against them.

That may be hard to accomplish since some characters are just inherently better than others, and some powers are inherently better than others. Making assumptions on the "usability" of a character based on level and total cover-count is probably challenging, but hopefully they can get close...

Cymmina

TxMoose wrote:

the ONLY measure that should go into any soft-capping penalty should be hoarded iso. where could your characters be if you used the iso you have on hand? that is the only thing that should penalize anyone. most of us would love to level everyone, but just a couple iso short....I mean a couple MILLION. and that's just to complete tier 2. not to mention tier 3 of both 3s and 4s. and then all the 'rest' of them. iso crazy!

You're really underestimating how much ISO it takes to level. I think i had 1.5 ISO saved up when championing came in and most of my 3*s soft capped at either 94, 104, or 120. I was able to champion 11 of the 120s. Doing that hurt my scaling more than getting my first 5* cover.

I currently have 260k ISO saved up that I'm planning on spending to take Hulkbuster from 172 to 266 so that I can champ him (and fix his covers). But if Elektra's or Ant-Man's DDQ day comes around before I get 300k, I'd be better off sinking some into them so that I have a shot at a legendary token.

What's the benefit spend my ISO as I earn it again?

Cymmina

aesthetocyst wrote:

Cymmina wrote:

What's the benefit spend my ISO as I earn it again?

Not causing massive jumps in scaling or MMR. Level evenly and you're always (somewhat) ready for anything.

That's only true if we were still talking about the game before championing was introduced. Leveling evenly now puts you in a position where you won't be able to make use of a 14th cover when it eventually arrives. Every token I open, I know that there's a chance I'll draw a Hulkbuster (my only maxed covered 4*). At the rate I'm going, it will end up in the trash before I can make use of it.

P.S. I'll get my 3rd 5* character from SHIELD Resupply today. I'm already screwed in the scaling/MMR department.

TLCstormz

NONE OF the 3*s are worth leveling nowadays, are they? lol

As far as powers go, at least.......

Keegan

All of this even applies to new players who can't even dream of having a roster they can soft cap. It's 30k iso for me to take 2* Thor from 62 to something like 86 alone. Think I'm going to care about lvl 14 2* Cap sitting on the bench with four blue covers and nothing else? Not worth leveling right now at all, but definitely not worth selling.

Quebbster

TLCstormz wrote:

NONE OF the 3*s are worth leveling nowadays, are they? lol

As far as powers go, at least.......

Blade is a lifesaver in EOTS for me at least. Get a few Nightstalker countdowns out and you'll drain the red AP faster than the ninjas can generate it. Then Deadpool is happy to put it to use. The strike and attack tiles help a lot too.

Warbringa

Quebbster wrote:

TLCstormz wrote:

NONE OF the 3*s are worth leveling nowadays, are they? lol

As far as powers go, at least.......

Blade is a lifesaver in EOTS for me at least. Get a few Nightstalker countdowns out and you'll drain the red AP faster than the ninjas can generate it. Then Deadpool is happy to put it to use. The strike and attack tiles help a lot too.

Yeah he is a stud for this event. If I was playing this one to be competitive, I would consider moving his black power to 5 and probably his green down to 3 (since I have him champed and depending on the team I pair him with) since that AP drain is huge and his black is pretty easy to spam since it only costs 8, I think?

Smudge

Warbringa wrote:

Quebbster wrote:

TLCstormz wrote:

NONE OF the 3*s are worth leveling nowadays, are they? lol

As far as powers go, at least.......

Blade is a lifesaver in EOTS for me at least. Get a few Nightstalker countdowns out and you'll drain the red AP faster than the ninjas can generate it. Then Deadpool is happy to put it to use. The strike and attack tiles help a lot too.

Yeah he is a stud for this event. If I was playing this one to be competitive, I would consider moving his black power to 5 and probably his green down to 3 (since I have him champed and depending on the team I pair him with) since that AP drain is huge and his black is pretty easy to spam since it only costs 8, I think?

I've kept his black at 3. Once there are enough reds on the board, the double strike tile spam blocks ninjas from placing Strength in Numbers or Meteor Hammer. DD, Hood, and Blade are all buffed, and I have them champed. Hood steals black, Blade spams black, they both steal red, and the ninjas usually don't get to fire powers. I'm usually swimming in black AP, so 5 in the skill is still overkill IMO.

Get DD with enough blue, and you can stun Teisatsu before they get to Turn to Smoke. This team has been godly in wave nodes once it gets going. Blade's KYEC is usually dealing 5-8k at the end of my turn by the end of the wave nodes. It can be very board-dependent on the higher scaled nodes with Wolverine and Gorgon of course, but I've gotten through many nodes without a lick of damage with this group.

On topic, I agree that not leveling up isn't soft-capping, but I don't know a good solution for the problem. My EotS bracket has the 2nd place guy fielding a roster with a single 1 cover 5* character, 3 lvl 95 2* champs, and everyone else is lvl 94 and under. All max covered 3*, and many 4* characters with more covers than I have for them. I'd class this player as a 3* transitioner in the same position as me for covers/characters, but I have a 1/1/2 Phoenix, lvl 200 4Thor, lvl 188 NF, and 15 3* champions, plus most 2*s champed and well-leveled... frustrating to see the roster disparity and a player doing significantly better than me with the same roster, just under-leveled.