A top pve player's view of the pve test
Shadow
Posts: 155
There has been a lot said on this subject already. However, a lot of what's been said isn't exactly correct in my opinion. As someone who has almost always been top 2 for new character releases as well as top 5 for non new character releases for over 2 years, I'd like to do a review of the current format being used for EoTS.
Develop's Objective
The developers wanted to allow pve to be played at any time a player wanted to play rather than having to hit the nodes at preset intervals. This goal is definitely met with a resounding yes. In fact, the top spot would be taken by someone who is able to grind the nodes 24h non-stop. I'll explain in a bit. Although this goal sounds good up front, the end result may actually be not as good as what was hoped for if people do indeed end up grinding 24 hours.
The new meta
Not including wave nodes, most nodes in pve do not exceed 1000 pts significantly. Refreshes are now 24 hours apart. What this essentially means is that if someone decides to hit the node 11 times up front and has the capability to do so, this person would be down 200 points from optimal clear. However, the minimum points given by a node is now 20 points. What this means is that if this same person does another 10 clears on that node, he'd no longer be losing points. If he then goes on to do another 10, suddenly he is actually ahead.
Fixed scaling
Having the scaling set before the event essentially means that the continuous grind becomes a real possibility as the grind would not affect the scaling.
Easy nodes
Easy nodes have been done away with because of the possibility of a continuous grind. Let's say that the 1000 point node was the hardest node. After clearing that 11 times, the person might want to make up for the loss of points by doing a continuous grind on an easy node. By making the easy node not that easy, the developers obviously hope that a continuous grind on an easy node isn't going to happen or that the possibility is at least minimized.
Rewards
The 20-iso was recently done away with to the great rejoicing of forumers everywhere. When this happened, I was wondering why this change was suddenly implemented when the developers had shown no interest to do so previously. In my opinion, this is now being answered. If one does a continuous grind on the 20-iso format, there would at least be that 20-iso each time. However, with it changed to 7 rewards, the continuous grind would yield no benefit other than placement.
One aspect of the reward system needs to be handled since there are no longer easy nodes. The rewards for those nodes needs to go up.
Conclusion
The impact of this change is that things will remain mostly the same on non new character releases but with the added benefit of allowing players to play at their own time. The top 1% will probably not change significantly from what it is today considering that people weren't doing full clears anyway. More people might actually be hitting it 7 times to get all the iso though.
However, this will likely have an impact to the top 1% on new character releases. Or at the very least the top 0.2% will definitely feel the impact. Whoever is able to grind round the clock will most definitely be getting the top spot. The whales would probably not bother. They can wait for the next pve to start and buy the new character from the vault. For the non-whale who must collect all characters in the least amount of time, this change is...
Develop's Objective
The developers wanted to allow pve to be played at any time a player wanted to play rather than having to hit the nodes at preset intervals. This goal is definitely met with a resounding yes. In fact, the top spot would be taken by someone who is able to grind the nodes 24h non-stop. I'll explain in a bit. Although this goal sounds good up front, the end result may actually be not as good as what was hoped for if people do indeed end up grinding 24 hours.
The new meta
Not including wave nodes, most nodes in pve do not exceed 1000 pts significantly. Refreshes are now 24 hours apart. What this essentially means is that if someone decides to hit the node 11 times up front and has the capability to do so, this person would be down 200 points from optimal clear. However, the minimum points given by a node is now 20 points. What this means is that if this same person does another 10 clears on that node, he'd no longer be losing points. If he then goes on to do another 10, suddenly he is actually ahead.
Fixed scaling
Having the scaling set before the event essentially means that the continuous grind becomes a real possibility as the grind would not affect the scaling.
Easy nodes
Easy nodes have been done away with because of the possibility of a continuous grind. Let's say that the 1000 point node was the hardest node. After clearing that 11 times, the person might want to make up for the loss of points by doing a continuous grind on an easy node. By making the easy node not that easy, the developers obviously hope that a continuous grind on an easy node isn't going to happen or that the possibility is at least minimized.
Rewards
The 20-iso was recently done away with to the great rejoicing of forumers everywhere. When this happened, I was wondering why this change was suddenly implemented when the developers had shown no interest to do so previously. In my opinion, this is now being answered. If one does a continuous grind on the 20-iso format, there would at least be that 20-iso each time. However, with it changed to 7 rewards, the continuous grind would yield no benefit other than placement.
One aspect of the reward system needs to be handled since there are no longer easy nodes. The rewards for those nodes needs to go up.
Conclusion
The impact of this change is that things will remain mostly the same on non new character releases but with the added benefit of allowing players to play at their own time. The top 1% will probably not change significantly from what it is today considering that people weren't doing full clears anyway. More people might actually be hitting it 7 times to get all the iso though.
However, this will likely have an impact to the top 1% on new character releases. Or at the very least the top 0.2% will definitely feel the impact. Whoever is able to grind round the clock will most definitely be getting the top spot. The whales would probably not bother. They can wait for the next pve to start and buy the new character from the vault. For the non-whale who must collect all characters in the least amount of time, this change is...
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Comments
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Great writeup. In short, it means that PVE rewards will definitely go to the people willing to spend the most time in it, instead of to the people more capable of adhering perfectly to a refresh scheme. I guess that on paper, that's fairer, but I'd expect that for most of the previous top PVE players (top 1%) the latter was easier than the former, thus complaints are heard. I know because I'm one of them and I know that I'll go from top 10-ing every PVE I want to not being able to top 10 any if the change is implemented going forward.0
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Thanks, d3, but don't do me any favors, eh?
Putting placement rewards in PvE isn't good design. It never has been, it never could be. Just let people hit progression and let them have their rewards. Placement rewards mean that there isn't any way to reward the average player, so what you get is people competing to see how irresponsible they can be with their time.
If there was some kind of skill-based brick wall that signaled the end of a person's participation in an event, it would be one thing. But they've taken away all the possibilities for that sort of design.0 -
I wish all the rewards for pve would be available to everyone, similar to the gauntlet event, with the tiered rewards remaining in PVP.
As it is now, unless you grind your **** off, and waste 3-4 hours to do every node 6-7 times then wait 20 hours or so then grind them again you won't get anywhere. And where are the scaled rewards, even if this is a "test", they should've taken rewards into account as well.
Imo, PVE should be a fun env, where one could practice team combos, that they could take into PVP instead of being forced to use the same team/s over and over just to clear some stupid node, which only causes it to grow stronger, so you can say goodbye to test teams when you get smacked across the face by a 2.3k caltrops, 4 times in a row.
With all the 4 stars getting introduced into the game, they could hand out 4 star chars along with the 25 CP as rewards (non tiered) and ppl would still be unable to fully cover a char due to the RNG.0 -
@inarius: the beauty of the proposed new PVE system is that you don't need to wait 20 hours after the initial grind. You can keep grinding the sub to maximise your points.
Maybe they will roll out an Auto Play feature in the near future, similar to what MFF has, or a paid botting feature where other freemium games are already using.0 -
I actually don't disagree with the New system after 2 days of testing.
The only thing wrong with it is placement rewards. If it was only progression rewards nobody would be complaining because there would be no grinding from anyone.
Make that one change and keep everything else the same and it will be fine. Even the increasing difficulty wouldn't be that bad since really it SHOULD be hard to reach final progression.
People are mad because doing 11 grinds of very hard roster decimating nodes for rewards that they may still not get is really the enemy of fun. Make it so you only have to clear each node 7 times to make progression and ALL rewards are progression and the problem is gone.
You can keep the increasing difficulty, and keep the 7 rewards per node structure.0 -
OneLastGambit wrote:People are mad because doing 11 grinds of very hard roster decimating nodes for rewards that they may still not get is really the enemy of fun. Make it so you only have to clear each node 7 times to make progression and ALL rewards are progression and the problem is gone.
Don't forget that top players need to spend double the time now to get similar placement. As a guy who typically gets t10 in new character debut events, I am NOT willing to sacrifice my life in that manner for a game. NO THANK YOU!
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I agree with the suggestions of removing the placement rewards and just focusing on progression for PvE. This new PVE format is still messing me up- I used to be Top 50 at worst Top 100 just by doing regular clears 3x a day plus a little grinding at the end. Now I am clearing each node a bunch of times and cant crack top 10...very frustrating.0
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Nate7671 wrote:I agree with the suggestions of removing the placement rewards and just focusing on progression for PvE. This new PVE format is still messing me up- I used to be Top 50 at worst Top 100 just by doing regular clears 3x a day plus a little grinding at the end. Now I am clearing each node a bunch of times and cant crack top 10...very frustrating.
I don't think they need to completely abandon this new system, they need to fix the issues with it, reduce the scalling drastically and reduce the amount of grinding for those chasing a placement reward e.g. get rid of that timer and lock the nodes after 5 clears (increase the rewards to offset the loss of 2 clears) and then unlock them for the last 1-2 hours so that people can grind for points if going for a placement.0 -
what the op was saying is that if they did that, it would skew the meta because a trivial node could be ground for 20 pts continuously, which nobody wants, including the schlump who'll be grinding that node down.Crowl wrote:I don't think they need to completely abandon this new system, they need to fix the issues with it, reduce the scalling drastically and reduce the amount of grinding for those chasing a placement reward e.g. get rid of that timer and lock the nodes after 5 clears (increase the rewards to offset the loss of 2 clears) and then unlock them for the last 1-2 hours so that people can grind for points if going for a placement.
don't think they need to abandon all aspects of the system, but the parts that are requiring the time effort to just make progression - all those need major adjustments. personally i don't care about the meta - i just want to farm some iso and make progression. as it stands now, my iso productions is slashed and I'm not making it to the cp progression. and before I'd make progression in about 60-70% of the overall event time.0 -
TxMoose wrote:
what the op was saying is that if they did that, it would skew the meta because a trivial node could be ground for 20 pts continuously, which nobody wants, including the schlump who'll be grinding that node down.Crowl wrote:I don't think they need to completely abandon this new system, they need to fix the issues with it, reduce the scalling drastically and reduce the amount of grinding for those chasing a placement reward e.g. get rid of that timer and lock the nodes after 5 clears (increase the rewards to offset the loss of 2 clears) and then unlock them for the last 1-2 hours so that people can grind for points if going for a placement.
don't think they need to abandon all aspects of the system, but the parts that are requiring the time effort to just make progression - all those need major adjustments. personally i don't care about the meta - i just want to farm some iso and make progression. as it stands now, my iso productions is slashed and I'm not making it to the cp progression. and before I'd make progression in about 60-70% of the overall event time.
Adjust my suggestion to only unlock the essentials and non-trivial nodes during the tiebreaker phase.0 -
TxMoose wrote:
what the op was saying is that if they did that, it would skew the meta because a trivial node could be ground for 20 pts continuously, which nobody wants, including the schlump who'll be grinding that node down.Crowl wrote:I don't think they need to completely abandon this new system, they need to fix the issues with it, reduce the scalling drastically and reduce the amount of grinding for those chasing a placement reward e.g. get rid of that timer and lock the nodes after 5 clears (increase the rewards to offset the loss of 2 clears) and then unlock them for the last 1-2 hours so that people can grind for points if going for a placement.
don't think they need to abandon all aspects of the system, but the parts that are requiring the time effort to just make progression - all those need major adjustments. personally i don't care about the meta - i just want to farm some iso and make progression. as it stands now, my iso productions is slashed and I'm not making it to the cp progression. and before I'd make progression in about 60-70% of the overall event time.
Or fix that problem by letting trivial nodes reduce to 1. Or even lock trivial nodes after 15 times played.
I'll again say that they need to have two types of PVEs and they can rotate them. The normal ones, and the type they are testing this week with progression only rewards. Fix some of the problems including giving back trivial nodes, drastically reducing scaling on essential nodes, and dialing down the number of clears (say 4 full and 4 to 20 points or 1 point).0 -
The only way this makes sense is IF most of the valuable rewards are put into progression, with placement rewards being the "icing on the cake" for the people willing to put in the grind. Then, it would make a ton of sense, because the majority can "play when they want" and know what reward they're getting for the effort expended, while the elites can compete for that last slice of the pie.
Side note: I'm continually baffled at why D3/Demi feel that limiting new character releases to a thin slice of the player base is somehow a good idea. By definition, NOBODY has a new character rostered. Therefore, everyone who gets a cover of a new char... will have to roster it! (Or get rid of it, in which case it's neutral whether they got it or not in the big picture). Wouldn't giving EVERYONE one cover of the new character, with the top competitors earning all the colors, sell a lot more roster spots for actual $$$? How would this harm the game? Baffling.0 -
The best system was at early ages of this game.
Super rubberbanding!
People only had to grind (the most) at the very end of the event. Only problem was back than, there where no time slices, and some of us had to woke up at the middle of the night.
Unfortunately, just when they introduced time-slices, they "nerfed" the rubberbanding and introduced the 8-hrly grind, basically removing most of the positive effects of time-slices.
Old school rubberbanding with time-slices would be the most comfortable play mode for the majority.0 -
I can definitely see why the devs felt that a system that gave you an advantage for not playing was flawed...turul wrote:The best system was at early ages of this game.
Super rubberbanding!
People only had to grind (the most) at the very end of the event. Only problem was back than, there where no time slices, and some of us had to woke up at the middle of the night.
Unfortunately, just when they introduced time-slices, they "nerfed" the rubberbanding and introduced the 8-hrly grind, basically removing most of the positive effects of time-slices.
Old school rubberbanding with time-slices would be the most comfortable play mode for the majority.0 -
I'm far from being a top player but I have to agree with one thing: overall ranking will probably stay the same but it has the added benefit of players being able to play when it suits them best and that, I find, is a big improvement, especially for people with a busy day-time job and not being able to jump in the again at set intervals.
Only downside I see is that rewards are somewhat on the low side. I need to put in tons of time and play lots of matches in PVE to get decent progression rewards whereas in PVP I can relatively quickly earn some
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I disagree. You had to play it, but only a single time/24hr, as it shouldQuebbster wrote:
I can definitely see why the devs felt that a system that gave you an advantage for not playing was flawed...turul wrote:The best system was at early ages of this game.
Super rubberbanding!
People only had to grind (the most) at the very end of the event. Only problem was back than, there where no time slices, and some of us had to woke up at the middle of the night.
Unfortunately, just when they introduced time-slices, they "nerfed" the rubberbanding and introduced the 8-hrly grind, basically removing most of the positive effects of time-slices.
Old school rubberbanding with time-slices would be the most comfortable play mode for the majority.0 -
Many here are saying do away with placement award. I don't disagree with that, but I would still like the ranking to be in place.
Why?
Because I want to know what the top tier are doing. If the progression awards are planned well, I'd expect that the top 100 players (if not the top 300 or so) should reach max progression. I got discouraged in the first 48 hr of EoS because I was only ~ 10% of the way there. With no other information, I'd probably have just quit then and there. Having used up 2/7 total time I wasn't even close.
But, I also placed top 50 in that. Unless I fell into a slacker bracket, that number told me I was on track to completion. So I'm trying to keep pace, trusting that mounting point totals will carry me through to a legendary draw.
Whether that's true or not, I have no idea. It does seem like a really big mountain to climb. There's only 2 days left and I (as well as at least 450 other people) are less than halfway there. If we don't make it, though, that's data for the devs - if only the top 25 made the final progression reward, then they've fundamentally altered the game. What they do with that information is up to them. Maybe that's what they want, maybe it's not. Either way, it's useful information.0 -
I don't even understand why PvE scoring needs to be so damn arbitrary. Just simplify the freaking thing. Trivial nodes are 100 points, Essential nodes are 200 points, and "easy" nodes are 300 points. Done. Period. Top progression is 1800 x number of days. No more guesswork.Calnexin wrote:Because I want to know what the top tier are doing. If the progression awards are planned well, I'd expect that the top 100 players (if not the top 300 or so) should reach max progression. I got discouraged in the first 48 hr of EoS because I was only ~ 10% of the way there.0 -
Top 2/5 for over 2 years.
Jebus, that's...a lot of time playing.0 -
I have no problem with moving all rewards to progression, like Gauntlet.
Except then they'll probably try to insert placement rewards into Gauntlet again like they did that one time...
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