The elephant in PVE

zeeke

Enough is enough.

It's time to decide if MPQ should have a player vs environment or not. Right now we just have PvP and 7 day PvP. I see two ways forward

1: Have placement rewards as it is now but if so everyone has to compete on the same premises. This means no personal scaling, everyone's nodes should be exactly the same. Same levels, same goons, same waves. May the best grinder with the best roster win.

2: Incorporate placement rewards in progression rewards, even if it means that you still need to play close to a perfect game in order to get the all the 4 covers at least it's fair and the same for everyone. This solution fits all rosters as well, just put the node level increases so you can reasonably reach 2 star rewards with a 1 roster, 3 rewards with a 2 roster etc

The new PVE tests make this even more clear, it can't continue like this. Vets getting steamrolled by 1 star rosters that can't even use the rewards for months is stupid. We should not be punished for putting thousands of hours and dollars into the game. Enough is enough.

udonomefoo

#1 - No. Seems to me the whole point of "pve" is that the rewards are based on effort, not roster. If you make it so low-level players can't compete anywhere then they quit and the game dies.

#2 - Close to what I think should happen. Remove all covers from individual placement rewards, leaving just iso & hp to compete for. Leave alliance rewards as-is so there is still some incentive to compete as a team. Add the cover rewards as progression. To me, this would necessitate reducing the rewards somewhat. As is, #1 gets 3 4* covers and 3 3* covers. We'd all love for all that to be in the progression, but that's not realistic. Make it 2 3* covers and one 4* cover.

That way, including the existing rewards you'd be able to get the following each event:
1 3* cover of current essential
2 3* covers of next essential
1 25 cp reward
1 4* cover

It's less than top 10 used to get, but far more than everyone else used to get. The biggest problem with this is the potential for low level rosters to skip entire tiers of play. They might have to use scaling to make it too difficult for low level rosters to reach certain point levels. Then we're right back to #1.

edgewriter

I think your first idea is not a bad, but with one caveat. You roster strength should determine the group you are playing in. So 2 star players play in competition with eachother and three star and so on.

HaywireII

udonomefoo wrote:

#1 - No. Seems to me the whole point of "pve" is that the rewards are based on effort, not roster. If you make it so low-level players can't compete anywhere then they quit and the game dies.

They already have an issue with the game as it stands for new players. 4* and 5* characters are pretty easily acquired and when you have a roster that's sitting around level 50 that completely trashes your scaling. If you don't dedicate your life to reading the forums and understanding the mechanics of the game (as most casual puzzle gamers will not) the game becomes too hard to beat, it's not fun and you quit.

wymtime

It is not that it should be competitive vs placement. A lot of people like the competitive nature of PVE. The trick is how to make progression worth more and placement a solid bonus. Also how to make scaling appropriate. Here is my personal feeling on how PVE should look.

Progression: individual progression remains the same as is. There will now be an alliance progression that will give out 3 covers. 1 4* for normal PVE 3 for new character PVE. There will also be event tokens, and ISO, CP, and HP.
For placement for new characters top 100 get 1 cover top 10 gets 2 covers, #1,2 gets 25 CP. for existing PVE top 150 gets 3*, top 50 gets 2 3* top 10 gets 1 4* and top 2 gets 25 CP as well. This will allow bigger rewards for alliance progression and placement over individual placement. Individual placement will still be worth it for the grinders and competitive people.

For scaling I will give an example for a 4* roster and it should scale according to roster. First 3 nodes start at level 50 and progress up from there for 7 wins. It would look like 50, 75, 100, 150, 175, 200, 240. His way they will scale with a buffed 3* at 240 still leaving you a lot of options to compete but still increased difficulty.
Last 3 nodes should get harder. 166, 200, 240, 270, 300, 325, 350. The first part you can use your 3* yen your buffed 3* then your 4-5*.
Essentials can be somewhere in between 125, 150, 175, 200, 225, 250, 275. For the most part you should be able to take them down with buffed 3* at the end. There can be play between all levels.
Lastly rewards should be based on the difficulty. he higher your scaling goes. He higher the rewards. Once you get above 250 you should be earning 500-1000 ISO not 70.

This is how I feel PVE can be more appropriate with some easy nodes, have more rewards based on progression, but still have a competitive nature to it.

zeeke

After some discussion there is a third alternative

3: endless nodes. The points stay the same but every time you clear levels are increased.

CNash

zeeke wrote:

After some discussion there is a third alternative

3: endless nodes. The points stay the same but every time you clear levels are increased.

Enforced Winfinite. Wonderful!

Bryan Lambert

It wouldn't be that difficult to turn every PvE into something like the Gauntlet.

Nodes are one and done.
Finish the nodes in one sub to end the sub and move to the next sub.
No scaling. First sub, first node, enemies start around L30. Each node, enemies increase by 10 levels. So Sub 1 enemies 30-120, sub 2 enemies 130-220, etc.
Node rewards: ISO equal to total level of opponents. So 90 ISO for 3x L30, etc.
Progression rewards commensurate with effort - a mix of tokens, covers, HP, and CP.

Skill, roster, and luck determine how far you get. Rewards are calibrated so that rewards are useful. So 3* rosters should be able to get far enough to earn a 4* cover or two, etc.

Worst thing that would happen with the above is the amount of time spent playing PvE's would drop way down (oh noes). Run more Lightning Rounds or run PvEs more often or let people put that time and effort into PvP instead if people run out of things to do.