The 3* Nerf Reality

Dauthi

A lot of players are up in arms about the 3* nerf, and I hear a lot them saying 3*s are worthless/useless, so I thought it would be good to create a topic that has reliable information on what has happened, and what it means. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I feel this whole change needs to be analyzed from a neutral standpoint. Let's also keep in mind the lack of communication from the developers is a separate discussion.

First, level 166 3*s and below were not effected. This nerf applied to the boosts given to 3*s to keep them in line with the power levels of 4*s. Pre-nerf 3*s ability power scaled very quickly past 166. In comparison when a 4* broke 166 the power increase was very gradual. This nerf should have made the power creep of 3*s similar to 4*s now, so your 270 3* should be comparible to a 270 4* of the same tier (top tier 3* characters vs top tier 4* characters for example).

Let's make some comparisons in this thread to clear things up using the whatever boosted 3*s we can compared to non-boosted 4*s. Looking at Luke Cage's yellow at level 240, when both allies are alive (an easy requirement), it does about 645 damage per ap spent. This is higher than Hulkbuster's red at 270. This is a pretty good comparison because both abilities are top tier in the 3* and 4* realm.

Warbringa

I understand this but for me....this is a power downgrade because they didn't nerf the minions. This is important because since I mainly play PvE, those characters you tend to rely on are the boosted ones more often than naught. The more recent scaling changes have helped somewhat from the initial roll out but I am doing less damage 100% time in the matches I need the boosted characters and the AI is doing less damage around 50% to 60% of the time (since AI characters have been nerfed too but there are often minion or mixed minion/character nodes on the three hardest nodes.) compared to the before the change. They didn't make Muscle, Hand, Pyros, etc do less damage or have fewer hitpoints to compensate as far as I am aware (besides addressing scaling to some degree?). I really have noticed the difference with Torch, Cap and Cyclops for example - characters who are very damage reliant (Cap to a somewhat lesser degree than the other two I know) as 3* characters. Caps shield doing 6000-7000 damage vs. 4400 ish is a big deal for in PvP matches it many times mean I take several extra minion shots since I can't take them down as fast and the matches last much longer, something I didn't need (but that is a quality of life issue for the game). It will take a long long long time for me to max out a 3* character in covers. I don't have enough 4* covers yet to solidly rely on 4* characters either.

carrion_pigeons

So it's important to realize that if a character isn't buffed at any given time, the nerf does not exist, relative to how 3*s worked before Championing. You wouldn't have had characters above 166 sans buff at all, so in those cases, Championing is just pure upside. The only case i which this qualifies as a nerf is when a character is buffed, where *before*, it would have gotten surplus scaling and *now* you only have whatever scaling you get from Champion levels. In other words, you aren't being affected unless your character is buffed *and* the buffed level is above 166 but below 266.

The degree to which this nerf affects people is directly proportional to the degree to which buffed characters were used in events pre-nerf. There are three broad areas of usage for such characters: usage as required characters in their own PvPs, usage in Essential nodes in PvE, and "other".

Required in PvP: This is by far the biggest deal, because it affects nearly match. I will call attention to the fact that required characters got a 70 level increase to their actual buff, though, and I suspect that was directly to address the impact of the nerf in this situation.

Essential in PvE: This is not as big a deal, I think. Essential nodes tend to be much easier than other nodes because essential characters tend to be characters that aren't very good (and are thus unleveled and fall outside the range of the nerf anyway). For the rare situation where a high-tier character is both leveled and Essential, you're already cheering and don't honestly need the extra power.

Other: some characters only really see play when they were buffed, but when they are tend to be interesting and a nice change of pace. Characters like Black Panther or Captain Marvel or Rocket and Groot are not part of the meta I normally see, but when they're buffed they seem pretty popular. Those characters are going to be less interesting going forward (up until they reach max Champion level, of course).

If there are any characters who see frequent use even when not buffed, then this makes them a little less dominant when they are. Obviously that's not an issue for players with high MMR, since even the best 3* characters like Iron Fist, Luke Cage, and Kamala Khan aren't part of their meta, but for players in the 3* transition, this might actually be kind of nice, even if it is a relatively rare benefit.

Dauthi

carrion pigeons wrote:

So it's important to realize that if a character isn't buffed at any given time, the nerf does not exist, relative to how 3*s worked before Championing. You wouldn't have had characters above 166 sans buff at all, so in those cases, Championing is just pure upside. The only case i which this qualifies as a nerf is when a character is buffed, where *before*, it would have gotten surplus scaling and *now* you only have whatever scaling you get from Champion levels. In other words, you aren't being affected unless your character is buffed *and* the buffed level is above 166 but below 266.

Basically, though I am not sure what happens exactly passed 270. Around 300 there is a pretty steep power curve for 4*s, and it would make sense that 3*s are on the same curve now too. This means that 3* elder champions that are buffed will still be competitive. In 6 months or so we will start to see this divide between new champions and old, the problem is a large population is all starting champions at the same time so there isn't much separation yet.

If what D3 says is true, this move has made it clear that buffed 3*s were stronger than 4*s generally, so what this means is that 3*s and 4*s at the same levels will be more interchangeable.

Pylgrim

Excuse me for this, Dauthi, but I don't think you are neutral. You've come out in the past to express your support for the nerf and your wording in the OP seems crafted to push your point of view.

Regarding the comparison of Righteous Uppercut to Repulsor Punch... are you purposefuly ignoring that nerfed "boosted" RU takes quite less than half a Hulkbuster's HP while a RP at 13 AP almost kills Cage outright? And that he has an in-built battery that makes gathering 13 AP trivial while tripling match damage?

Dauthi

Pylgrim wrote:

Excuse me for this, Dauthi, but I don't think you are neutral. You've come out in the past to express your support for the nerf and your wording in the OP seems crafted to push your point of view.

By all means, make some comparisons if you feel this isn't correct. You are totally against the nerf, but it doesn't mean you can't attempt to look at it from all point of views.

Regarding the comparison of Righteous Uppercut to Repulsor Punch... are you purposefuly ignoring that nerfed "boosted" RU takes quite less than half a Hulkbuster's HP while a RP at 13 AP almost kills Cage outright? And that he has an in-built battery that makes gathering 13 AP trivial while tripling match damage?

My Luke Cage at 240 has 14k life, and a 13 ap Repulsor Punch will do about 8190. So no, it will take about 60% of Lukes health, less if he is at 270.

We are taking about the nerf to powers, not to HP or character mechanics. If you don't like that comparison let's take a look at someone like cyclops who can fuel his abilities as well, we just need a buffed Cyclop's stats. Really though, wouldn't it be better to compare the abilities attack power themselves which is quantifiable, not the mechanics of each individual character?

I do agree however, Hulkbuster as a character is very strong.

morph3us

Pylgrim wrote:

Regarding the comparison of Righteous Uppercut to Repulsor Punch... are you purposefuly ignoring that nerfed "boosted" RU takes quite less than half a Hulkbuster's HP while a RP at 13 AP almost kills Cage outright? And that he has an in-built battery that makes gathering 13 AP trivial while tripling match damage?

Nerf or no nerf, Cage's and HB's health hasn't changed. Boosted 3*s have always been glass cannons. And you can't hold up HB's self-acceleration as an argument here, since that hasn't changed either since the balance pass - it's the reason why he's been so dominant since his release, compared to Cage, he's much, much quicker. I think the damage comparison is a valid one.

If we're making an argument that boosted 3*s are doing less damage than before, and so can't compete with the 4* teams, I think that's a valid argument, but it is clear that on a damage/AP basis, RU is comparable to RP.

Dauthi wrote:

If you don't like that comparison let's take a look at someone like cyclops who can fuel his abilities as well, we just need a buffed Cyclop's stats. Really though, wouldn't it be better to compare the abilities attack power themselves which is quantifiable, not the mechanics of each individual character?

The only max 266 Cyclops I can find is specced 3/5/5, which makes comparison slightly awkward, since we can't look at Optic Blasts. Still, at 266, 3Clops has 14727 health, and Full Blast does 7064 damage for 13 AP, or 10058 if there are more than 9 red tiles on the board. That works out to 773.7 damage/AP for a fully loaded Full Blast (or 543.4 dmg/AP if =<9 red tiles).

Dauthi

morph3us wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Regarding the comparison of Righteous Uppercut to Repulsor Punch... are you purposefuly ignoring that nerfed "boosted" RU takes quite less than half a Hulkbuster's HP while a RP at 13 AP almost kills Cage outright? And that he has an in-built battery that makes gathering 13 AP trivial while tripling match damage?

Nerf or no nerf, Cage's and HB's health hasn't changed. Boosted 3*s have always been glass cannons. And you can't hold up HB's self-acceleration as an argument here, since that hasn't changed either since the balance pass - it's the reason why he's been so dominant since his release, compared to Cage, he's much, much quicker. I think the damage comparison is a valid one.

Were/are 3*s glass cannons? As far as I can tell 3*s with high health should have as much health as a Hulkbuster, for instance a She-Hulk and Rocket and Groot should be very close at 270, while Thor should be just under them. For reference, my She-Hulk is at 16,191 health at 253.

Hulkbuster as a character just isn't well balanced, a character should be a glass cannon, a tank with considerably less damage, or somewhere in between. Hulkbuster also fuels his cannon arguably the best out of any character in the game. You don't see anything as broken as him in the 3* realm.

If we're making an argument that boosted 3*s are doing less damage than before, and so can't compete with the 4* teams, I think that's a valid argument, but it is clear that on a damage/AP basis, RU is comparable to RP.

If HP and ability damage curves are equal between 3*s and 4*s, how would 3*s not be able to compete with 4*s while buffed?

Dauthi wrote:

If you don't like that comparison let's take a look at someone like cyclops who can fuel his abilities as well, we just need a buffed Cyclop's stats. Really though, wouldn't it be better to compare the abilities attack power themselves which is quantifiable, not the mechanics of each individual character?

The only max 266 Cyclops I can find is specced 3/5/5, which makes comparison slightly awkward, since we can't look at Optic Blasts. Still, at 266, 3Clops has 14727 health, and Full Blast does 7064 damage for 13 AP, or 10058 if there are more than 9 red tiles on the board. That works out to 773.7 damage/AP for a fully loaded Full Blast (or 543.4 dmg/AP if =<9 red tiles).

That health is about average, we see the same amount for someone like Iceman too. Full Blast definitely took a major hit, but it still shines compared to 4*s abilities non-buffed.

morph3us

Dauthi wrote:

Were/are 3*s glass cannons? As far as I can tell 3*s with high health should have as much health as a Hulkbuster, for instance a She-Hulk and Rocket and Groot should be very close at 270, while Thor should be just under them. For reference, my She-Hulk is at 16,191 health at 253.

Hulkbuster as a character just isn't well balanced, a character should be a glass cannon, a tank with considerably less damage, or somewhere in between. Hulkbuster also fuels his cannon arguably the best out of any character in the game. You don't see anything as broken as him in the 3* realm.

If you look at the way health scales, you're absolutely correct, it appears to be on the same scale for 3*, 4*, and 5*. Looking at the off season BoP event, Wolverine (Patch), Wolverine (X-Force), and Wolverine (Old Man Logan) all had exactly the same health at level 550. Obviously that doesn't hold so true in normal events, since Patch is capped at 266 (plus boosts), XFW at 370 (plus boosts), and OML at 550 (plus boosts).

I'm probably not being entirely clear, by saying that boosted 3*s were glass cannons. It's more that the main damage dealers in 3* territory suffer from having low health (3clops being a case in point), which make them more vulnerable compared to their 4* counterparts. Most of the high health 3*s don't have equivalent damage output.

Pylgrim

Dauthi wrote:

We are taking about the nerf to powers, not to HP or character mechanics.

I'm aware that hp is unchanged. Therein lies the issue: the advantage that 4*s always have had on 3*s is their much higher hp, especially when boosted (and now, championed). Who cares if a given 3*'s power is as strong as a 4* power of the same level? If they both fire it, the 4* will be at half life at worse while the 3* will be close to death.

Let's take as an example kamala and Jean grey. For 12 green they deal a similar amount of damage (ignoring JG's bonus special tiles). When boosted, kamala actually deals a bit more. The difference is that 4k damage is 25% of the hp of your average 4* team (unboosted!) but almost 50% of an unboosted 3* team. But let's be realistic, people will play with the boosted characters, so 4k is around 15% of the average hp of a boosted 4* team and 35% of a 3* team. Am I coming through here? The 4* team will need around or less than 3 total Full of Surprises (unboosted, I don't know the damage of a boosted one) to down the 3* team, which will need anything between 6 or 7 Embiggened Bashes to win. This was obviously not so stark pre-nerf.

Bulls

The whole point of boosting lower tiers is to get them "in range" of higher one and to give players "a chance" of fighting and defeating them. Don't be suprised that maxed and buffed 3* are weaker than 4* - even if that's just in health. After all getting 4* to max lvl costs 4x more than maxing 3* so there have to be a feeling of superiority while playing 4*, right?

Druss

Which is easier though?

Acquiring 13 covers for a 4* + 600K or Acquiring 113 3* covers & 150k iso?

_Ryu_

This goes from one subject to another... how boring and dont think this can be discussed "neutral", if so a moderator should give the facts and ask questions and listen to the answers and asks then deeper stuff to get the discussion ongoing. Like this:

The 3* tier in this game was nerfed in power outcome at boosted lvls.

Should a bossted 3* to lvl 240 or 290 as strong as a maxed lvl 270 4* or should there alway be a gap in power at equal lvl?

Where 3*s before the nerf overpowered compared to 4*s at same lvl? If yes, were a 3* nerf then the best way to handle it?

Is it now harder to do the transition from 3* to 4* because 3* player can now not get beyond 700-800 points in PvP (because a massive 4* wall blocks the way) to get top prizes or are there enough other ways to do the transition (for example: collecting leg tokens, do PvE, Clash of Titans)?

Warbringa

_Ryu_ wrote:

This goes from one subject to another... how boring and dont think this can be discussed "neutral", if so a moderator should give the facts and ask questions and listen to the answers and asks then deeper stuff to get the discussion ongoing. Like this:

The 3* tier in this game was nerfed in power outcome at boosted lvls.

Should a bossted 3* to lvl 240 or 290 as strong as a maxed lvl 270 4* or should there alway be a gap in power at equal lvl?

Where 3*s before the nerf overpowered compared to 4*s at same lvl? If yes, were a 3* nerf then the best way to handle it?

Is it now harder to do the transition from 3* to 4* because 3* player can now not get beyond 700-800 points in PvP (because a massive 4* wall blocks the way) to get top prizes or are there enough other ways to do the transition (for example: collecting leg tokens, do PvE, Clash of Titans)?

It has slowed the transition because PvP was one of the fastest ways to get 4* tokens due to its frequency. They generally last less time than PvE where you now get 25 cp for slogging it out over a much longer and time intensive process. The 4* cover in PvP is much more difficult to reach now if you don't already have a usable 4* roster and of course there is the reward of 25 CP but I know very few people reach that one in general. Clash of Titans is once a week and once again, you have to have a fairly usable 4* roster to get rewards from that. I for example can usually complete about 33% (after several frustrating wipes) of those so I don't view it as a real good transition tool. I transitioned away from PvP five or six months back. I used to be able to hit top 25 in PvP with some effort but not to much difficulty with 3* roster but as the meta passed me up I just couldn't compete. Now I can sometimes break top 100 if I am in a fortunate slice. Those 3* placement rewards I used to be able to get that would now really help me with championing are now less frequent in PvP. So I usually now just play seeds and get to the 300 point mark to get my 2* cover, event token and some bonus iso in PvP. Championing should in theory help, but look how long it will take to get 4* covers from that....a long time. I got an influx of several random covers by championing my 3* but not enough to make a useful 4* and I have yet to reach any of the set cover 4* rewards with them.

TxMoose

Warbringa wrote:

It has slowed the transition because PvP was one of the fastest ways to get 4* tokens due to its frequency.

and is the only reasonably attainable 'set' 4* cover out there. I don't count pve t10 due to the 4hrs+ every day that it requires = unreasonable. pvp 1K HAS to be the primary transition tool. nothing else makes sense. and now, while not impossible, its significantly more difficult for a strictly 3* roster. i.e. more hp for hops and more health packs.

HaywireII

Don't forget that if you've rostered any 5* characters you can't PvP with your 3* team because the current matchmaker throws 4* championed teams at you. PvE becomes the only option for transitioning to 4*.

Malcrof

My Champed She-Hulk in her pvp, boosted, has over 20k health, and basically just Soloed a lvl 390 OML because my OML died.. stole strike tiles, 2500 aoe, ap depletion..

A support character.. a tank no less, took down a high level 5* basically solo...



Tell me again how under-powered they are?

CaptainFreaky

TxMoose wrote:

Warbringa wrote:

It has slowed the transition because PvP was one of the fastest ways to get 4* tokens due to its frequency.

and is the only reasonably attainable 'set' 4* cover out there. I don't count pve t10 due to the 4hrs+ every day that it requires = unreasonable. pvp 1K HAS to be the primary transition tool. nothing else makes sense. and now, while not impossible, its significantly more difficult for a strictly 3* roster. i.e. more hp for hops and more health packs.

And I think the Dev's would agree with this and say this was their intent if you gave them truth serum. I don't think Dev's were terribly worried about boosted 3* being more powerful than 4* (else they could have just adjusted the rate of ability increase for 3* above level 290 or so). I think this was a way to put pressure on people to move to the 4* tier, and at the same time slow down the 4* transition. With few exceptions (DDQ being one), almost every new move or feature is designed to capture interest/play (and use players precious resources) or slow down the game to make sure people are always striving for something to advance.

Sadly, whether intentionally or not, the side effect of this particular change will probably slow down the 4* transition too much. I think this will just throw more people into the "pray to RNGesus for 5* to skip the 4* transition" mentality. Maybe the Dev's did think about this and they are fine with it (as it gets more people joining buyers clubs and otherwise spending to get more chances at 5* covers).

Pylgrim

Malcrof wrote:

My Champed She-Hulk in her pvp, boosted, has over 20k health, and basically just Soloed a lvl 390 OML because my OML died.. stole strike tiles, 2500 aoe, ap depletion..

A support character.. a tank no less, took down a high level 5* basically solo...



Tell me again how under-powered they are?

Well done! Now, just curious, a couple questions: how long did that battle take? And, since you apparently at are the point where you're playing with 5*s, being honest, would you have taken she-hulk into that battle if you were not forced to? Oh oh and a third one! Would you say that you're confident in replicating this feat several more times, or will you admit that this was an outlier outcome?

When the pair of boosted iron fist and Luke cage, two of the stronger 3*s can't reliably beat unboosted Jeanbuster, you cannot present one isolated victory as proof of anything. I, too, accidentally brought once the team of 2*s I use for ddq into a PvP battle against maxed 3*s and managed to win. I wouldn't do it again, nor try to pass it as petulant evidence that 2*s are overpowered.

Linkster79

Malcrof wrote:

My Champed She-Hulk in her pvp, boosted, has over 20k health, and basically just Soloed a lvl 390 OML because my OML died.. stole strike tiles, 2500 aoe, ap depletion..

A support character.. a tank no less, took down a high level 5* basically solo...



Tell me again how under-powered they are?

My team of championed Classic Storm, Magneto Marvel Now and The Hood did the same in shield simulator, wouldn't want to use that combination to attempt to climb to 600 points in versus events though and doesn't make my 2* overpowered. Your example is an abberation, what if there were no strike tiles generators on the opposing team, how confident are you the result would have been the same if you were facing a L390 Silver Surfer instead and had to rely on mostly match damage?

Ruinate

Pylgrim wrote:

When the pair of boosted iron fist and Luke cage, two of the stronger 3*s can't reliably beat unboosted Jeanbuster, you cannot present one isolated victory as proof of anything. I, too, accidentally brought once the team of 2*s I use for ddq into a PvP battle against maxed 3*s and managed to win. I wouldn't do it again, nor try to pass it as petulant evidence that 2*s are overpowered.

I get that having your tier nerfed is upsetting, but let's be real here. I get hit by those two turds all the time.