Why is the communication so bad?

Raffoon

The developers AND the community managers used to both interact on the forums on a daily basis. Now we're lucky to get word from the developers once a month. The community managers we're lucky to hear from once a week, besides basic announcements (some of which are 7 weeks late).

There are still two people whose job it is to interact on the forums still, right?

Drop by the Marvel Future Fight forums some time, just to see the difference. Their community manager can be a bit of a jerk sometimes, but he/she posts around 10-30 times PER DAY on average. (By the way mods, they actually pay people to moderate their forum)

When I looked before, that game was sitting 7 spots lower than MPQ in terms of the top grossing list in the Apple App Store. Of course it moves around a bit, but it's definitely comparable in revenue, so this can't be a resources problem.



P.S. This post is about communication, but by the way, speaking of resources, MFF also introduces full 3D characters with animations at a similar rate as MPQ, have updated their Story mode with 2 additional chapters (around 20 missions with 3D graphics and light story), have added lots of new modes, run unique events on a regular basis, and oh of course they're also generous and give away substantial rewards for free on a frequent basis. All before day 300 of the game existing. Comparing them to Demiurge is like night and day.

P.P.S. MFF isn't all good. Their customer service is absolutely horrendous. I've been going back and forth with them for almost 2 months about items I purchased that they didn't deliver. Still, Demiurge could learn A LOT from them.

Unknown

it is perfectly on par with the rest of the game.

SnowcaTT

aesthetocyst wrote:

To answer your main question, I presume the devs have determined that interactive communication on this forum offers them a poor return on their time. Lurking, reading, then issuing edicts saves time and has the same effect. Back-and-forth with players here is a waste.

That is exactly what gets them in hot water though. They obviously are lurking - but then the edicts they issue aren't the ones that are the problems in the game. Your userbase knows the big problems! A little back and forth isn't a terrible thing. You can't give in to every whim, but you can listen and at least explain why things are like they are, or why they haven't (yet) changed.

Once again, >https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/09/01< to the rescue on the complaints of "community managers". (language, or I'd post image here)

STOPTHIS

Maybe the real question is why was Ice so good? Did he just hustle more because he wanted to or have we become too bitter to deal with?

BlackSheep101

Personally, I've gone through engagement arcs with several forums over the years. Lurking initially, jumping into the fray and joining the culture, then getting jaded as the same topics keep getting rehashed and pervasive negativity wears down my enthusiasm. I get tired of reading the same complaints over and over again and tired of seeing every change or addition to the game ripped to shreds before it even goes live. I imagine if this game was my own product, all of these things would be magnified.

Add on that D3 and Demiurge work on multiple games and this one is over 2 years old now, and it doesn't surprise me a bit that we don't hear from them every day.

Jarvind

1) Because most of the complainers are addicts and will keep playing no matter how much they complain. This isn't unique to MPQ - every game forum I've ever read has dudes grandstanding and claiming they'll quit if they don't get X, who have been saying the same thing for literally years.

2) Because the forum represents a tiny, tiny subset of the player base, which mostly doesn't know that "dev communication" is even a thing, and doesn't care about any of this stuff as long as they get to dork around with some shiny squares a few minutes a day.

3) Because a significant portion of the complainers will never be happy, and even if they get exactly what they demand, they'll just find something else to whine about. Not worth engaging.

TxMoose

STOPTHIS wrote:

Maybe the real question is why was Ice so good? Did he just hustle more because he wanted to or have we become too bitter to deal with?

I don't know ice from adam, but I read his interactions with us and I think he was so good because he was partly one of us. he played on a solid alliance (might still be there). he CARED - was not just a job, but the game was something he enjoyed. I think the best thing they could do is hire a player for that position that cares and has a player's perspective. not saying certain people don't care, but if its just a job, or if you're overloaded, forum comm will wane.

firethorne

STOPTHIS wrote:

Maybe the real question is why was Ice so good? Did he just hustle more because he wanted to or have we become too bitter to deal with?

Oh, there is absolutely more vitriol thrown at the devs than there was in the past. I've certainly be part of it. Mind you, I think in many instances, they've earned very much deserved scorn.

It is a nearly unanimous feeling that ISO is far too scarce. So, they make it a priority to... make DDQ more difficult... for no additional rewards. On the anniversary celebration, they publicly announced we were supposed to lose.

That isn't too say they haven't made some good moves, like championing. But, even that feature just brings up the feeling that I need more ISO. For me, I think there is just a feeling of being perpetually behind the curve and fed up with random progression that has been slowly eroding good faith for a long long time.

carrion_pigeons

It comes down to the business model.

MPQ is founded on the theory that you can trap players, mentally speaking, between investment in a sense of progression and rapid inflation for in-game currency. It's basically the same tactic that drug dealers use.

Communication with players actively risks letting them pull back the curtain enough to break the trap. If players ever got them started on explaining why Iso has to be so scarce, for example, people would see that their motivation for keeping this game running is entirely cynical and has zilch to do with letting their players enjoy the game.

MrCroaker64

Jarvind wrote:

3) Because a significant portion of the complainers will never be happy, and even if they get exactly what they demand, they'll just find something else to whine about. Not worth engaging.

I tend to believe the above statement is the root cause of it all. Every time I have seen a Dev or Mod post, on anything, they get a deluge of complaints and "Why didn't you ... " comments. Regardless of how much you may like your job, that kind of backlash is hard to take day in and day out.

If you look through the General Discussion board you will see that the vast majority of posts is negative and usually calls into question the Devs integrity, intelligence, and/or commitment. I am not defending their choices on game design or communication, but anyone that can be honest with themselves has to see that the community is driving the communication away.

I'm not trying to start trouble or cause a big shouting match here. But in my mind the loudest, and constant, complainers are as much at fault as the Mods and Devs.

Peace,
Croaker

simonsez

BlackSheep101 wrote:

Personally, I've gone through engagement arcs with several forums over the years. Lurking initially, jumping into the fray and joining the culture, then getting jaded as the same topics keep getting rehashed and pervasive negativity wears down my enthusiasm. I get tired of reading the same complaints over and over again and tired of seeing every change or addition to the game ripped to shreds before it even goes live. I imagine if this game was my own product, all of these things would be magnified.

Add on that D3 and Demiurge work on multiple games and this one is over 2 years old now, and it doesn't surprise me a bit that we don't hear from them every day.

Come on, no one's looking to hear from them "every day". The reason the tone is generally negative on the forums is because literally MONTHS pass before we get any kind of official word on issues/bugs that are central to the game.

BlackSheep101

simonsez wrote:

Come on, no one's looking to hear from them "every day".

Seriously?

Raffoon wrote:

The developers AND the community managers used to both interact on the forums on a daily basis.

The topic creator wants to talk about why we don't hear from the developers or the publisher as often as we used to. I'm speculating that they're all jaded.

I don't disagree that many issues going back beyond anniversary have been handled very poorly, both in implementation and in communication. However, it's disingenuous to blame the pervasive negativity on the forums on poor response time on major issues. There's negative response to very nearly every game change and communication from the reds. Moreover, even when they attempt to make things right, people continue to grind their axes over months old issues that have been fixed. I'm tired of reading it, and I just play the game.

simonsez

BlackSheep101 wrote:

simonsez wrote:

Come on, no one's looking to hear from them "every day".

Seriously?

Raffoon wrote:

The developers AND the community managers used to both interact on the forums on a daily basis.

He's not demanding daily communication, he's just saying it was nice when we had it. There's a big middle ground between that and what we have now.

BlackSheep101 wrote:

There's negative response to very nearly every game change

I would say that the negative responses are generally fairly in line with how player-unfriendly said changes are. Eg, expecting a cheery response from people who just had their whole roster nerfed would be pretty foolish and unreasonable.

Stop trying to carry their water. It's way too heavy for you.

Unknown

MrCroaker64 wrote:

Every time I have seen a Dev or Mod post, on anything, they get a deluge of complaints and "Why didn't you ... " comments. Regardless of how much you may like your job, that kind of backlash is hard to take day in and day out.

But it is their job. With everything that entails with it. I had my own PC repair business for a few years and any and all comments must be fielded, everything from "I love everything you've done for us" to you need to get ur tinykitty back over here because this this and this are doing that" and it didn't matter day or night if they wanted to complain about something they could just call me and I would sit there and listen to every last complaint and explain exactly how I was going to fix my "mistake", which was usually me putting sum random scripted exe. file on desktop so they could just click that for desired effect.

not once did I complain back to them that insulting me was rude, or tell them that everything was " working as intended" they just didn't understand what was on screen. and even if I had people tell me "so and so said u did this or that and that u don't know what your doing" I still did business with those people, I didn't chime in on their personal conversations and threaten them with refusal of service, I just did my job.

But this is not that type of personal business! strange policies have to be put in place when dealing with anon and their perceived right to always be correct

Ice leaving may have signified that he could no longer get our messages through and they were starting to kill the messenger for doing his job. now David has an even stricter set of rules he has to follow, and all they probably want to hear from him is unicorns farting rainbows and the weekly whale happiness levels.

So even if he only shows up to do his updates and tell people to lay off the devs or cs agents, its probably his exact job discription. Your probably right in that theyre jaded on coming here, negativity can interfere with job productivity, policies may have been set to try to keep a peaceful environment on their part that may limit or even ban certain levels of interaction.

its business don't take it personally...

edited to censor myself as tinykitty didn't pop up automatically

David [Hi-Fi] Moore

Topic noted. Thanks for the feedback. Moving to Suggestions & Feedback.

JVReal

There will always be people that are dissatisfied, it's the nature of free will and opinion. Whenever you open up a forum for discussion of any kind, there will be conflicting views. It happens in every aspect of life. Marriage, children, religion, politics, dress color... it's everywhere.

That shouldn't stop people from communicating, especially those who own and operate said mechanism for receiving user input.

BlackSheep101

simonsez wrote:

He's not demanding daily communication, he's just saying it was nice when we had it. There's a big middle ground between that and what we have now.

BlackSheep101 wrote:

There's negative response to very nearly every game change

I would say that the negative responses are generally fairly in line with how player-unfriendly said changes are. Eg, expecting a cheery response from people who just had their whole roster nerfed would be pretty foolish and unreasonable.

Stop trying to carry their water. It's way too heavy for you.

You're just hell bent on putting words in my mouth today. They used to communicate daily, and now they don't. He wondered why, and I proposed a reason. Nowhere do I propose what level of communication they should deliver.

Picking out the most player-unfriendly change in the last twelve months and saying people are justified in responding negatively does not address people frothing at the mouth over: the choice of new characters, the power set of new characters, updated game artwork, planned scaling/matchmaking tests, health levels in the new BoP, zomg profX 4* ddq will be impossible!, platform-enforced currency changes, and on and on and on.

I can come up with an even longer list of things people are justifiably upset about, but when everything gets a negative reaction, people stop listening. It's human nature, not me making excuses for people I've never met.

Linkster79

aesthetocyst wrote:

Raffoon wrote:

... it's definitely comparable in revenue, so this can't be a resources problem.

Does not follow, without knowing the full details of each game's business model and cash flows.

So, you're telling me that a young game's forum gets a lot of dev communication, while the game is still in it's formative phases ... and that when MPQ was younger, and in its formative phase, there was more dev communication on its forum?

Huh.

Try comparing games of similar age, development, and playerbase.

To answer your main question, I presume the devs have determined that interactive communication on this forum offers them a poor return on their time. Lurking, reading, then issuing edicts saves time and has the same effect. Back-and-forth with players here is a waste.

I used to play a F2P browser game called The Settlers Online. I played it a lot for 2 years, it is developed by Blue Byte Studios and Published by UbiSoft, that game is now most likely headed into its 5th year. Right from the start the community manager for the 3 EU servers spent a fair amount of each day just generally hanging out chatting with the players and fielding questions. Because this was done on a virtually daily basis eventually the more experienced players would answer the newer players questions. I'm rambling now but the point I am trying to make is that by chatting more with the players the community managers job actually becomes easier. The CM for The Settlers Online also does customer support tickets, social media posts and forum administration (where all news pertaining to the game is posted first) as well as the usual liase with the development team.

mpqr7

I work in a job where I represent my company by answering questions and resolving problems. People may be upset if things aren't working, but they will always be happy if they receive information in a timely manner.

I don't expect constant communication and feedback on every question, but the more information we receive, the better. About what's happening now, what will be happening soon and why certain unexpected things happened.

And it's totally okay to provide partial information if the full story isn't available in all details yet. We love getting updates.

Raffoon

MrCroaker64 wrote:

Jarvind wrote:

3) Because a significant portion of the complainers will never be happy, and even if they get exactly what they demand, they'll just find something else to whine about. Not worth engaging.

I tend to believe the above statement is the root cause of it all. Every time I have seen a Dev or Mod post, on anything, they get a deluge of complaints and "Why didn't you ... " comments. Regardless of how much you may like your job, that kind of backlash is hard to take day in and day out.

If you look through the General Discussion board you will see that the vast majority of posts is negative and usually calls into question the Devs integrity, intelligence, and/or commitment. I am not defending their choices on game design or communication, but anyone that can be honest with themselves has to see that the community is driving the communication away.

I'm not trying to start trouble or cause a big shouting match here. But in my mind the loudest, and constant, complainers are as much at fault as the Mods and Devs.

Peace,
Croaker

The problem is that it's a vicious cycle.

When the mods and devs interacted regularly, people knew that their concerns were being heard, and got insight into why their requested changes would or wouldn't work within the framework of the game. This fostered a sense of community WITH the devs. People offered constructive suggestions and were willing to cut the devs some slack because they knew the intentions were good. No, it wasn't all flowers and unicorns, but people felt better knowing the direction that the game was headed.

Now, with little to no communication, frustration builds. The overall tone of the forum is less inviting. This has led the forums into the downward spiral that they're currently in. Problems go unacknowledged for months, so when they finally do get acknowledged or solved the response is "why did it take you so long" rather than "glad to see that thing you've been working on and telling us about has finally come about".

I don't know about the other "complainers", but personally, I'm willing to say kudos to the devs when they do something good. The problem is that those good things are so few and far between, and usually come with some corrupt-a-wish style downside that goes unacknowledged for months.

In short, if the developers communicated more, I suspect that they'd see their feedback become a lot more constructive and a lot less accusatory. Not from everyone, but from a substantial proportion of the population.

Dayv

SnowcaTT wrote:

Once again, >https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/09/01< to the rescue on the complaints of "community managers". (language, or I'd post image here)

I'm not sure if that comic strip was intended to be used as an excuse for people to abuse customer-facing workers, but it's sure ended up that way.