newer 4* stronger than older 4*

jdoe893

eg spider gwen red deals around 1500damage at 1 cover while wxf green deals around 1400damage at max covers

NickHewitt12

Power creep is a definite issue, but it's also important to note that the quality of recent 4*s is noticeably higher now that the devs removed the ability to whale characters through HP.

Vhailorx

In a game with this business model, the newer characters have to be useful and tempting relative to the old ones; otherwise there would be no incentive to keep playing hard.

That's why a 3* endgame became a 4* endgame, and now a 5* endgame. And the same thing happens within star-tiers as well. Look at psylocke and then look at iron fist. Same phenomenon.

snlf25

With Dude Brolk being the only spanner in the works. God he is awful.

STOPTHIS

Don't worry. Just look at the 3* level. Once they complete the 4* level, are 25 characters deep into the 5* level, and put out a few 6* they'll go back and update some of lesser 4* characters. And then you'll be making a thread about newer 5* being stronger than older 5* and asking, "Why does SpiderGwenpoolverine do 27,102 damage at one cover, but OML only does 22, 669 at 5 covers?"

Xenoberyll

Nicholas Hewitt wrote:

Power creep is a definite issue, but it's also important to note that the quality of recent 4*s is noticeably higher now that the devs removed the ability to whale characters through HP.

Tell that to the whales. Feels like they're buying Packs and covers even harder than before.

Monged4life

Well the job of rebalancing older less relevant characters like Quicksilver and Iron Man has started now. Probably not at the rate new characters are released, but I have faith that they will reach Xverine eventually.

Polares

jdoe893 wrote:

eg spider gwen red deals around 1500damage at 1 cover while wxf green deals around 1400damage at max covers

Of course there is some power creep in this game, It is really hard to find a game like this where new chars are not better than old ones, but said that, you probably chose one of the worst offenders. I think there is nobody that understands why devs nerfed xforce green, it was obvious just Surgical needed to be nerfed, and yellow buffed a little. Green was ok, it is comparable to x-23 green for example. But we have other 4s like IMHB, 4hor or ProfX that are also quite old, and they are still very good, IMHB is still top5, and ProfX is member of the best PvE team (in my opinion). And if you look as last releases, Nova is quite good, but not better than the other top5, and the other new ones (Venom, Miles, HR, chulk, etc.) are not better than old 4s. So, I don't think things are that bad now... It would probably be better if they removed the buy cover mechanics before, because now all super whales, whales and little whales have the top5+ covered, so the effects of this change are going to be harder to see (until they release someone better than iceman).

Buret0

Tell that to Cho.

Vhailorx

There's another issue with this particular power: the devs wildly over-value tile destruction.

Ever since the ragnarok/4* thor re-balance in March 2015, the devs' internal valuation for tile destruction powers has been way out of line. This is why power powers like ragnarok's green and xfw's green do so much less damage relative to their cost.

LegendReborn

Buret0 wrote:

Tell that to Cho.

I'm fairly certain Cho was an in house contest to see who could make the worst character, and more specifically, the worst black ability.

GrumpySmurf1002

Vhailorx wrote:

There's another issue with this particular power: the devs wildly over-value tile destruction.

Ever since the ragnarok/4* thor re-balance in March 2015, the devs' internal valuation for tile destruction powers has been way out of line. This is why power powers like ragnarok's green and xfw's green do so much less damage relative to their cost.

Ditto charged tiles. When they redid 4Thor, they re-assigned a value to those tiles way too high. Which also hurt Rags, hurts Cho, and even Surfer, at least relative to his tier.

tanis3303

Vhailorx wrote:

There's another issue with this particular power: the devs wildly over-value tile destruction.

Ever since the ragnarok/4* thor re-balance in March 2015, the devs' internal valuation for tile destruction powers has been way out of line. This is why power powers like ragnarok's green and xfw's green do so much less damage relative to their cost.

Unless, of course, we're talking about lvl 395 Juggernaut in a node you're expected to grind to dust in order to place in a PvE event...then 6 AP for a huge **** board shake power is just fine...

Buret0

tanis3303 wrote:

Unless, of course, we're talking about lvl 395 Juggernaut in a node you're expected to grind to dust in order to place in a PvE event...then 6 AP for a huge **** board shake power is just fine...

Didn't you just play BoP? Sure, he's got way too much health, but 1* damage seems to scale a lot lower now. His match damage and headbutt aren't going to be nearly as deadly as a boosted Carnage with feeder node.

Vhailorx

tanis3303 wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

There's another issue with this particular power: the devs wildly over-value tile destruction.

Ever since the ragnarok/4* thor re-balance in March 2015, the devs' internal valuation for tile destruction powers has been way out of line. This is why power powers like ragnarok's green and xfw's green do so much less damage relative to their cost.

Unless, of course, we're talking about lvl 395 Juggernaut in a node you're expected to grind to dust in order to place in a PvE event...then 6 AP for a huge **** board shake power is just fine...

You will note that Juggs' 6ap boardshake ability pre-dates demiurge's re-evaluation of ability values in March 2015. none of the first generation characters really belong in any discussion of deimurge's current design principles. They were still figuring out too many things and starting down too many now defunct development paths (e.g. cost of powers changing with more covers, rather than the strength of power effects).

tanis3303

Vhailorx wrote:

tanis3303 wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

There's another issue with this particular power: the devs wildly over-value tile destruction.

Ever since the ragnarok/4* thor re-balance in March 2015, the devs' internal valuation for tile destruction powers has been way out of line. This is why power powers like ragnarok's green and xfw's green do so much less damage relative to their cost.

Unless, of course, we're talking about lvl 395 Juggernaut in a node you're expected to grind to dust in order to place in a PvE event...then 6 AP for a huge **** board shake power is just fine...

You will note that Juggs' 6ap boardshake ability pre-dates demiurge's re-evaluation of ability values in March 2015. none of the first generation characters really belong in any discussion of deimurge's current design principles. They were still figuring out too many things and starting down too many now defunct development paths (e.g. cost of powers changing with more covers, rather than the strength of power effects).

Totally agree, which is why I call for a complete removal of first generation characters scaled far past their level caps. Remove Juggernaut, Venom, 2* Daken, Moonboobs and Bullseye from any and all Story events. WHO'S WITH ME??!!

MaxxPowerz

Personally I find stun abilities are usually way over valued.

It costs 8 blue ap to stun an enemy for 1 or 2 turns and create a couple of mediocre protect tiles? Really Mr. Fantastic?

The Thing's red ability costs 10 ap and it does only moderate damage, even when compared to most 3* characters. All so he can stun the enemy for a round.

Unless both of these abilities are maxed out they are hardly even useful. It just makes for a diluted character, especially when you consider how easy it is just to roll with Ice Man.

TxMoose

MaxxPowerz wrote:

Personally I find stun abilities are usually way over valued.

It costs 8 blue ap to stun an enemy for 1 or 2 turns and create a couple of mediocre protect tiles? Really Mr. Fantastic?

The Thing's red ability costs 10 ap and it does only moderate damage, even when compared to most 3* characters. All so he can stun the enemy for a round.

Unless both of these abilities are maxed out they are hardly even useful. It just makes for a diluted character, especially when you consider how easy it is just to roll with Ice Man.

I agree somewhat. best stunners in the game to me, are ice, mbw, cstorm, cap, and daredevil. maybe spidey if you can get some webs out, but that's pretty situational. all others are tacked onto a damage ability or something - 1 time, 1 turn stuns have very low utility to me.

GrumpySmurf1002

MaxxPowerz wrote:

Personally I find stun abilities are usually way over valued.
It costs 8 blue ap to stun an enemy for 1 or 2 turns and create a couple of mediocre protect tiles? Really Mr. Fantastic?

It's not the stun value for Mr F, it's the protect tile value.

As far as Thing, he does 488/AP with a 2 turn stun. Compared to 4Cyc (539), Miles (545, 1 turn stun), Wilson (524), it's basically in line.

It's not HB, Carnage or Gwen, but it's pretty good. Thing's overall damage is also getting hurt because of the value of his inconsistent yellow.

SnowcaTT

Hard to sell those covers (well, 40-packs now I guess) unless you are making characters strictly better than the ones folks already have maxed....